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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: Mud Dev Mailing list <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:34:04 +0000 (GMT)</LI>
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<PRE>
On Thu 11 Dec, Matt Chatterley wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Marian Griffith wrote:
> > On Tue 09 Dec, Richard Woolcock wrote:
> > > Matt Chatterley wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Derrick Jones wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Vadim Tkachenko wrote:
> > I should not respond to this but I will try to clarify one point.
...
> I should probably let it lie too, but I love stirring pots. Besides, as
> usual, Marian has dragged the thread back into something nice and civilly
> (sp?) discussable. :)
*blush* thank you.
> While this was just an 'observation' that I made, I'd like to reclarify in
> slightly more detail - Many people dislike actually being killed by
> another player. I do! However, I advocate PK under appropriate
> circumstances as a good thing. The reason for the discrepancy here is that
> i have never been PKed under said 'appropriate circumstances', by which, I
> mean a game environment whereby PK is not 'taboo', but rather an accepted
> and normal part of the game, as much as the wholesale slaughter of NPCs.
Strangely enough I do not object to pk as such. I do object to it being
used in such a way that it is a tool for (emotionally) harming other
players. In general I prefer pk to be handled as a part of roleplaying,
where two or more players decide to roleplay a fight and act out the
results of that combat. If both sides do not consent there is no effect
for the killing. Problems start to happen when combat can be initiated
by one player only and the other player is forced to live with the con-
sequences of it. This is the case on muds, and on mushes that have not
disabled the ability to 'kill' somebody else.
> > This is indeed the difference that makes it either something personal
> > or a signal that the other person does not care at all about you or
> > your feelings. Neither alternative is pleasant.
> A very valid, and very relevant point of view. Now, if I may postulate an
> alternate (or at least, different) situation, or environment. If we take a
> game, whereby PK is not such a taboo situation, and for instance, there is
> an Assassin guild, which hands out assignments to its members. The members
> are NPCs and PCs, and the contracts are for NPCs and PCs. Either may be
> assigned to perform their duties upon either.
The key difference here is that the killing of another player is handled
in an IC setting. The player being targetted should reasonably be able to
expect being a target and ought to be able to prepare or defend herself.
This of course assumes that those assassins do not randomly kill for any
reason. If there is no contract they are safe.
Realistically speaking you can not trust players with this ability. Not
even with the ability to offer a contract on another player. Players will
abuse it sooner or later.
> Now, the PK is not personal, but professional. This however, raises the
> second point you have above - the assassin does not, or at least seems to
> not care about your feelings when they kill you. It is the knowledge that
> they *could* care, but do not, which is offensive, since being killed by
> an NPC assassin, which is incapable of such emotional response or
> considerations, is *not* taken on a 'personal' level.
*nod*
> The end result is the same - you are just as dead, and you are no worse
> off in the *actual* sense either way, but on an emotional level, to some
> degree, are you more injured by the PC-wrought death?
Depends. I probably would be though.
> > > > (is it anymore personal an attack than one from an NPC? I say *no*
> > > > since it is NOT personal against you, or at least, ideally is not).
> > Ideally perhaps, but many players use pk as a way to hurt other players.
> > E.g. to settle disagreements
> Very much so. You are also correct to note that I am speaking somewhat
> idealistically - this is absolutely true, and I 'fess up to that right off
> the bat. A Player using his PC to kill another Players PC to cause some
> hurt to them is guilty of what is coming to be known as 'jerk behaviour'
> in these circles - but it is not readily preventable, or punishable
> (unless it is done repeatedly, in which case I drop it into the
> 'harrassment' category).
harassment, stalking, obscene or offensive behaviour are quite different
from pk. They can have no place on a game, not even a poor excuse like
roleplaying an evil character. pk can, possibly, be justified as being a
part of the game.
> > A player can decide to attack you or not to attack. The monster can not
> > make that decission. It is the fact that somebody else decided to harm
> > me that makes pk hard to accept. It is personal or I do take it as such
> I touched on this above, but to reword what Marian has said - on an
> emotional level, this is so. The NPC can decide to attack or not very
> readily, even with a semblance of intelligence, BUT in the end, it is a
> program, using logic of some fashion to decide if it will attack or not.
> It is not a reasoned, or emotional decision. However, this raises a
> counter-riposte, in that the dissociation between Player and PC would
> suggest that the Player is not making a personal attack, but rather
> conveying their PC appropriately, by suitable mechanisms.
No.
A player must actively decide to attack somebody or something. Even if
the player does not consider the attack personal this does not change
the fact that it is another -person- he attacks. On the contrary, the
fact that other players -may- take it personal and -may- identify more
strongly with their game characters ought to stop him from doing so.
That he does not suggests that he does not care about the feelings of
his victim.
> > I'm seeing evidence of another subject that should not for the moment
> > be resurrected. But no, you focus on the act of combat and not on the
> > intentions.
> *chuckle* We have several such subjects. :)
yes, but let's leave this one burried for now.
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
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<li><strong><A NAME="00856" HREF="msg00856.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Matt Chatterley <root#mpc,dyn.ml.org></li></ul>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
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<LI><strong><A NAME="00704" HREF="msg00704.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Thu 11 Dec 1997, 22:05 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00709" HREF="msg00709.html">[MUD-Dev] OT: Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Vadim Tkachenko <a href="mailto:vadimt#4cs,com">vadimt#4cs,com</a>, Thu 11 Dec 1997, 23:19 GMT
</LI>
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00701" HREF="msg00701.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Thu 11 Dec 1997, 17:48 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00711" HREF="msg00711.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Fri 12 Dec 1997, 00:09 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00826" HREF="msg00826.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Mon 15 Dec 1997, 00:16 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00856" HREF="msg00856.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Thu 18 Dec 1997, 08:56 GMT
</LI>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00741" HREF="msg00741.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Fri 12 Dec 1997, 09:30 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00717" HREF="msg00717.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Fri 12 Dec 1997, 01:57 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00731" HREF="msg00731.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Fri 12 Dec 1997, 07:57 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
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