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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Mike Sellers <<A HREF="mailto:mike#online-alchemy,com">mike#online-alchemy,com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 10:40:07 -0800</LI>
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<PRE>
At 12:09 PM 12/6/97 PST8PDT, Felix A. Croes wrote:
>> Rather, I believe that we can (and must) make use of that small proportion
>> of people (the usual 10% or 20% who do 80% or 90% of good things in any
>> community setting) to create and enforce their own societal mores. We can
>> best do this by understanding who these people are, and then giving them
>> limited, compartmentalized, generally localized power -- but real power
>> nonetheless to affect the social landscape of the game. In effect, this
>> enables "the game" to settle their grievances, only now some of them have
>> essentially become part of the game from others' point of view -- and as we
>> know, often the best game play is created by the people in the game, not
>> the monsters or situations we create externally. The same goes for
>> resolving problems.
>
>Unless the power to affect the game is available to everyone, this is
>still what you called an externally-imposed solution -- there has to
>be a sheriff to appoint the deputees.
I'm not sure what you mean here. How is having a PC Sheriff appointed by a
PC Mayor who is elected by the PCs themselves an externally-imposed
solution? I'll grant you that the Sheriff's powers are enabled by the
game, and to that degree it is external -- but we're talking about a
virtual world where at some level *everything* is externally imposed,
including basic things like gravity. (And as discussed, I think you could
call this "Sheriff" solution a first-generation solution... there are more
elegant ways to get the same effect, of course.)
>In my experience, the mature, responsible players are even less
>motivated than the paid staff to deal with the jerks. Dealing with
>the jerks is not actually a very enjoyable occupation.
Maybe. This does not fit my experience, at least when these players are
given the equivalent of *limited* wiz powers. They are only unmotivated
when nothing they do is going to make a difference anyway.
>Also, I think that you perhaps use the idea of letting the game solve
>itself too easily. Any workable solution has to include the troublemakers
>in the game, too.
Good heavens, yes. This is precisely what I meant about creating social
ecologies. Briefly, the "troublemakers" take on the role of "decomposers"
in biological ecologies -- they are important to redistributing power and
wealth, just as vultures and worms are important to redistributing the
energy encased in any consumer, so the producers can use it again.
>> ... My goal
>> is to make that pain as small and short as possible, and to eliminate as
>> many of the code crutches as we can. I don't think the solutions we've
>> seen thus far scale to where the Net and online entertainment spaces are
>> going to be in, say, three to five years. IMO, we absolutely must stop
>> looking at this as a problem with a technical solution, and begin
>> addressing it as a predictable and tractable situation with social
>> solutions.
>
>Agreed, with one qualification: I want the result to be a mud.
As opposed to what? What would make something like this _not_ a mud?
Mike Sellers Chief Alchemist
mike#online-alchemy,com Online Alchemy
Combining art & science to create new worlds.
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00509" HREF="msg00509.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Felix A. Croes <a href="mailto:felix#xs1,simplex.nl">felix#xs1,simplex.nl</a>, Sat 06 Dec 1997, 03:18 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00515" HREF="msg00515.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#online-alchemy,com">mike#online-alchemy,com</a>, Sun 07 Dec 1997, 05:36 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00542" HREF="msg00542.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Mon 08 Dec 1997, 21:40 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00548" HREF="msg00548.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Tue 09 Dec 1997, 04:32 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00517" HREF="msg00517.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#online-alchemy,com">mike#online-alchemy,com</a>, Sun 07 Dec 1997, 18:34 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00516" HREF="msg00516.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>,
Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#online-alchemy,com">mike#online-alchemy,com</a>, Sun 07 Dec 1997, 18:35 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00529" HREF="msg00529.html">Wild west (was Guilds & Politics)</A></strong>,
Alex Oren <a href="mailto:alexo#bigfoot,com">alexo#bigfoot,com</a>, Mon 08 Dec 1997, 13:30 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00531" HREF="msg00531.html">Wild west (was Guilds & Politics)</A></strong>,
s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Mon 08 Dec 1997, 14:01 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00532" HREF="msg00532.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Wild west (was Guilds & Politics)</A></strong>,
Alex Oren <a href="mailto:alexo#bigfoot,com">alexo#bigfoot,com</a>, Mon 08 Dec 1997, 15:03 GMT
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