<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 -->
<!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo -->
<!--X-From-R13: "Fenivf Qnfrl" <rsvaqryNcbynevf.arg> -->
<!--X-Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 22:13:13 +0000 -->
<!--X-Message-Id: 199710052212.SAA13423#polaris,net -->
<!--X-Content-Type: text/plain -->
<!--X-Head-End-->
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is supp</title>
<!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" -->
<link rev="made" href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">
</head>
<body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff"
text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000">
<font size="+4" color="#804040">
<strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong>
</font>
<br>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
<br clear=all><hr>
<!--X-Body-Begin-->
<!--X-User-Header-->
<!--X-User-Header-End-->
<!--X-TopPNI-->
Date:
[ <a href="msg00049.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00051.html">Next</a>
]
Thread:
[ <a href="msg00049.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00000.html">Next</a>
]
Index:
[ <A HREF="author.html#00050">Author</A>
| <A HREF="#00050">Date</A>
| <A HREF="thread.html#00050">Thread</A>
]
<!--X-TopPNI-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-->
<!--X-Subject-Header-Begin-->
<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</H1>
<HR>
<!--X-Subject-Header-End-->
<!--X-Head-of-Message-->
<UL>
<LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Travis Casey" <<A HREF="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 18:12:20 -0400</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: "Travis Casey" <<A HREF="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</A>></LI>
</UL>
<!--X-Head-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin-->
<HR>
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End-->
<!--X-Body-of-Message-->
<PRE>
Brandon J. Rickman <ashes#pc4,zennet.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, "Travis Casey" <efindel#polaris,net> replied:
>
>>Are there any muds which don't have a "time based interface" (by which I
>>presume you mean a real-time interface, as opposed to a turn-based
>>interface). Turn-based seems like it would be impractical for a mud -- if
>>one player has to go to the bathroom, should all the other players be put
on
>>hold until he/she gets back?
>
>A lot of things seem impractical for muds (like ZenMOO), but some interface
>questions can't be solved with the typical assumptions of real-time
>mud interaction. Yes, in a turn-based mud you would have to wait for
>AFK players, and perhaps this is such a fundamental change that these new
>turn-based games fall outside of [the petty world of] mud-dom. Should
>we talk about these new play-by-mail-ish mud games?
Certainly. :-) Just taking turns eliminates some problems (like most
typoes, some advantages for scripters, and the advantage to being a fast
typist.) Turn-taking also can allow for differential turn lengths -- that
is, the length of a turn in game time doesn't always have to be the same.
This makes long-term activities, such as training and travel, more practical
in the game.
I can't think of any way to utilize the latter aspect (which IMHO is the
best part) without moving to a small-group model more like that of paper
RPGs. To do otherwise would require either allowing players to become
separated in time, which complicates things incredibly; or making everyone
do long-term actions at once, which seems too artificial if all the PCs
aren't in one group, or making those who are doing long-term actions wait
while others take lots of turns, which can be done without a turn-based
system.
>So the player was unprepared due to stupidity, carelessness, or the
>general unpredictability of the universe. That the player made a typo
>doesn't change the fact they were unprepared. But to put it a different
way,
>you would like to design the interface in such a way that the player
>would be prevented from making mistakes. Why is is this an interesting
>design goal?
You're putting words in my mouth. My only point was that using a modal
interface penalizes players much more for simple typos than a non-modal
interface does -- I've said nothing about preventing players from making
mistakes.
An interface which unduly punishes the user for simple mistakes is,
quite simply, a bad interface. Thus, this is an important part of designing
the interface.
>And in most games, setting down the sword _has no other consequence within
>the game_. But if you were a monster would you rather attack an armed or
>an unarmed hero? This has a lot to do with the music skill thread, but
>in this case swordplay is considered a more useful activity. Yet while
>we are complicating the actions the character must take we keep trying
>to simplify the actions of the player.
Do we? I wish to simplify the *interface*, not the *actions*. There is
a difference between the two. It should be noted as well that the
*character*
and the *player* are two distinct things... making the *character* do more
does not necessarily mean that the *player* must do more.
>I think the really valuable conclusion of this
>discussion is that character actions need to be
>atomically scripted for the benefit of new players, but advanced players
>would be able to rewrite the scripts to their personal level
>of sophistication. And yes, this means that advanced players would be
>more vulnerable to typos, or "interface mistakes".
I have no problem with making experienced players more vulnerable to
typos --
they should have had time to learn the interface so that they know how to
handle them.
>>In any case, though, it should be noted that typos are an artifact of the
>>interface -- if the player actually *were* his/her character, it would be
>>impossible for him/her to try to weld a sword when he/she meant to wield
it.
>
>Is there some kind of perfect one-to-one, artifact-free interface between
>my mental self and the physical world? If so, where can I buy one?
>If the player actually *were* his/her character, what the heck is this
>random skill check stuff?
It's God playing dice with the universe. :-) I come from a paper RPG
background, and that's what I really want to recreate. In a paper RPG,
there are almost never such problems, because the "interface" to the game
is a human GM, who is capable of asking for clarification, realizing when
a player probably meant something else, and accepting quick restatements
("I'm going to weld my sword. I mean, wield it.").
This doesn't eliminate tactical errors (e.g., forgetting to bring your
sword at all). If you wish to allow for things like a character's
sword being stuck in his/her scabbard, it seems to me that it makes more
sense to account for that separately -- after all, the physical ability
of the player to type well isn't related to the physical abilities of
his/her character. (At least, it isn't on most muds.)
>I would like to point out a possible gap between real-time _interaction_
>and real-time _interface_. The "real-time nature of muds" is
characteristic
>of the interaction, not the interface.
The interface is how players interact with the mud, so this seems like
a false distinction to me. Or are you talking about the interaction
between the characters and their universe, rather than the interaction
between the players and the mud?
>This reply has been stewing in my dead letter file long enough. I'm
>sure I haven't been nearly explicit enough in my opinions.
Join the club. :-) I'd like to reiterate that all I'm getting at is that
the interface shouldn't make it unnecessarily difficult to "pilot" one's
character -- some difficulty is unavoidable, but we should try to reduce
it where we can. A modal interface for asking for clarification on commands
seems to me to be too likely to cause problems -- especially given the ease
with which it should be possible to make in non-modal (and the one in the
original example really is non-modal, as the original author has since
clarified.)
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel#io,com>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' rec.games.design FAQ:
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) <A HREF="http://www.io.com/~efindel/design.html">http://www.io.com/~efindel/design.html</A>
</PRE>
<!--X-Body-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-End-->
<!--X-Follow-Ups-->
<HR>
<!--X-Follow-Ups-End-->
<!--X-References-->
<!--X-References-End-->
<!--X-BotPNI-->
<UL>
<LI>Prev by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00049.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00051.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] games gender bias (Re: Affecting the world)</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Prev by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00049.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00000.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Index(es):
<UL>
<LI><A HREF="index.html#00050"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI>
<LI><A HREF="thread.html#00050"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
<!--X-BotPNI-End-->
<!--X-User-Footer-->
<!--X-User-Footer-End-->
<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] OT: Usability and interface and who the hell is su</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00117" HREF="msg00117.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] OT: Usability and interface and who the hell is su</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 18 Oct 1997, 01:15 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00048" HREF="msg00048.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></strong>,
Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sun 05 Oct 1997, 20:58 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00106" HREF="msg00106.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></strong>,
coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Tue 14 Oct 1997, 18:51 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00049" HREF="msg00049.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></strong>,
Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sun 05 Oct 1997, 21:00 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00050" HREF="msg00050.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></strong>,
Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sun 05 Oct 1997, 22:13 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00000" HREF="msg00000.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques</A></strong>,
Brian Price <a href="mailto:blprice#bedford,net">blprice#bedford,net</a>, Wed 01 Oct 1997, 05:37 GMT
<UL>
<li><Possible follow-up(s)><br>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00004" HREF="msg00004.html">[MUD-Dev] UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques</A></strong>,
Maddy <a href="mailto:maddy#fysh,org">maddy#fysh,org</a>, Wed 01 Oct 1997, 15:01 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00060" HREF="msg00060.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques</A></strong>,
clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Mon 06 Oct 1997, 22:51 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00046" HREF="msg00046.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques</A></strong>,
Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sun 05 Oct 1997, 20:22 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
</ul>
<hr>
<center>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
</center>
<hr>
</body>
</html>
