<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK --> <!--X-From-R13: Oqnz Ivttvaf <avtugsnyyNhfre1.vasvpnq.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: from scipio.globecomm.net [207.51.48.12] by in2.ibm.net id 867831596.28420-1 Wed Jul 2 08:19:56 1997 CUT --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199707020824.BAA09163#user1,inficad.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: Pine.LNX.3.96.970701155441.163A-100000#mpc,dyn.ml.org --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00031.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00033.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00003.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00040.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00032">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00032">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00032">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Adam Wiggins <<A HREF="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:24:35 -0700 (MST)</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> [Matt C:] > > at 08:44 AM, Jeff Kesselman <jeffk#tenetwork,com> said: > > >Better roleplay my eye, which on of us, truely in the situation, > > >would actually kill someone else becasue they said soemthing nasty to > > >us (or did soem other non-life threatening annoying act)? None of us > > >who are reasonably sane.... > > > > This would seem to depend on the world definition. Given a world or a > > culture where life is pathetically cheap, then yes, I would expect it. > > It seems presumptuous to automatically extend current social > > structures to the definition of RP. > > Plus it depends on a few other things - for instance the pressure (peer?) > of honour, and such. I think it fully possible for a duel (of some sort, > to the death), to break out over honour (etc) in a suitable environment. > > Or in a similar vein, a fight (not necessarily lethal) over an insult, and > so forth - the lack of non-lethal conflict options on many muds where they > might be appropriate would seem to add to the tendancy to "unwarranted > PK". This is a matter of magnitude. If someone throws a verbal insult, it's rarely cause for some sort of violence. If someone came into my home uninvited (ie, a thief) I would not hestitate to use whatever force I could bring to bear to protect myself, my family, and to a lesser extent, my honor and my belongings. When I argue for 'PK', I'm not arguing for the ability to be able to slit throats, although this is a (small) part of it. I'm arguing for unrestricted character interaction. This includes violence such as fistfights, wrestling matches, and duels. It also includes thievery (pickpocketing and otherwise), spellcasting (being able to cast silence, blind, curse, paralyze, fear, or equivilent spells on other players), sports (jousting, boxing, football, armwrestling), intrigue (posioning, 'coning' people out of money and items), and so on ad naeseum. The fact that character death could come into play is relevant but not the whole picture. Characters *will* die at the hands of other players, if it is at all possible to die in the game - via such innoncent seeming things as botched wound-repair, fly spells which wear out too early, someone leading someone else into certain death, or completely indirect situations like setting of an avalanche which buries three other players. The reason I keep harping on this is that I've yet to hear any answer. 'Any answer' as in, I've yet to see someone even some much as *attempt* to answer this question, which either means that it simply doesn't have an answer and this is (as I believe) a failing of no-PK games, or I'm missing the point entirely, which is that none of these things can ever happen on a no-PK game, which I find somewhat hard to believe (as I said, if it is possible to die, it is possible for another character to cause your death) or at the very least it seems so restricting as to make the game either a complete social mud (builders/talkers, which is fine, but this is pretty far removed from the idea of a 'game'). What about ambiguous actions? Maybe you just have to avoid these...but I build things to be neither inherently 'good' or 'bad', they just are. Thus I make a spell which is helpful in some circumstances, harmful in others. I'm pretty sure it would be downright impossible for the system to make judgements about when someone is trying to use one of these ambiguous spells 'against' another player. What to do, in this situation, then? Example: Joe is fighting a dragon, and facing certain death. Sue casts 'stone' on him, encasing him in a magical block of stone which is both impentrable to the dragon's attacks, and which magically feeds him oxygen, allowing him to sustain for hours or even days (at least, until he starts to get thirsty). She's just saved his life. Once the dragon gets bored and wanders off, she removes the spell and rushes in to heal his wounds. In another situation, Meg is trying to cleave Sue in half with an axe. Sue casts stone on Meg, in the same way she did to Joe. Sue leaves. Meg withers away within the confines of the stone, dieing a horrible death, esentially at the hands of Sue. Example 2: Meg, through a twist of chance, spies Joe talking to Ted. As it happens, Ted is a known leader of the underworld, and Joe is an aspiring mayor. Meg snaps a few pics with her insta-cam and has them published in a local rag. The character of Joe is esentially now ruined for his player, since his hopes of a political career are completely ruined, and he's already found himself to be completely incapable at the only other thing he considers worthwhile, which is fighting dragons. How does the system keep this from happening? If it doesn't, isn't this every bit as bad as PK? Joe's character is ruined, forever! Example 3: (the one I use over and over) Ted, the slimy thief, tricks Sue into purchasing a supposedly 'magical' artifact for large amounts of cash. Sue quickly discovers the ruse and decides to teach Ted a lesson. Summoning a wolf with her druid powers, she commands it to hunt down Ted (who has fled into the wilderness fear her wrath) and retrieve the bag of gold she gave him. She also tells it to give him a good fright while doing it, including lots of growling and possibly ripping up his clothes a bit - which should keep him from thinking about messing with her, or her fellow druids, ever again. Example 4: Sue has learned an 'enlarge' spell. She casts it on all her friends to aid them in combat, as it nearly doubles the target's size. Later on, thanks to her 'wolfeye' spell, she spots Ted hiding in some bushes from some local guards who are searching for him. Still bitter, she casts 'enlarge' on him, suddenly bringing him into the view of the 20 guards standing nearby. The quickly surround him and club him to the ground. His character will now be rotting in jail for hundreds of game-days - esentially unplayable. Does this make 'enlarge' an aggressive spell? So how about it? Seems to me rather an unsolvable dillema - take out all spells, skills, or other actions which might somehow 'hurt' other people's characters, and you're left with a completely bland and uninteresting game, or at least one in which you can hardly interact with other players. Leave them in and you run the risk of characters being 'ruined' or otherwise 'hurt' by other players. Maybe it's like the whole free speach argument - allow it and people will inevitably get offended or emotionally hurt, don't allow it and you cut out all the "good" stuff too. Oops, answering my own question there...but don't let that disuade you from answering. I'm insanely curious as to what people's stance are on this. So far all the discussions seem to revolve around silly examples like swordsmen running around chopping off heads for no particular reason. </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00073" HREF="msg00073.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> clawrenc#cup,hp.com</li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00040" HREF="msg00040.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Matt Chatterley <root#mpc,dyn.ml.org></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00003" HREF="msg00003.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Matt Chatterley <root#mpc,dyn.ml.org></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00031.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Nation of shopkeepers</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00033.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Supporting RP+PG</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00003.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00040.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00032"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00032"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00090" HREF="msg00090.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Wed 09 Jul 1997, 00:53 GMT </LI> </ul> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00006" HREF="msg00006.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Senses & geographical events</A></strong>, Chris Gray <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Wed 02 Jul 1997, 00:18 GMT <UL> <li><Possible follow-up(s)><br> <LI><strong><A NAME="00052" HREF="msg00052.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Senses & geographical events</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Thu 03 Jul 1997, 05:44 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00003" HREF="msg00003.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Tue 01 Jul 1997, 21:58 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00032" HREF="msg00032.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Wed 02 Jul 1997, 15:19 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00040" HREF="msg00040.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Wed 02 Jul 1997, 22:20 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00073" HREF="msg00073.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Fri 04 Jul 1997, 05:17 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <UL> <li><Possible follow-up(s)><br> <LI><strong><A NAME="00016" HREF="msg00016.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Wed 02 Jul 1997, 03:47 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00034" HREF="msg00034.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Wed 02 Jul 1997, 15:54 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>