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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</A></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 25 Jun 97 17:36:44 -0700</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-to</em>: <A HREF="mailto:claw#null,net">claw#null,net</A></LI>
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<PRE>
In <<A HREF="msg01392.html">33ad0a65.1847835#relay,mnsinc.com</A>>, on 06/20/97
at 07:29 PM, caliban#darklock,com (Caliban Tiresias Darklock) said:
>Okay. To begin with, I see any given game server (GS) as having four
>basic parts, as follows:
> +----------------+----------------------+-----------------------+
> | GAME SERVER | (Internal) | (External) |
> +----------------+----------------------+-----------------------+
> | (Technical) | Game System Model | Programming Language |
> +----------------+----------------------+-----------------------+
> | (Nontechnical) | Game World Model | User Command Set |
> +----------------+----------------------+-----------------------+
>This illustration is slightly flawed as I present it, in that the
>game system and game world are rarely a clearly defined pair of
>separate entities, and on many occasions the programming language and
>user command set are subject to significant crossover.
It also avoids the various forms of hardcoded games (cf DGD, Diku)
where there is no internal programming language: changing the game
requires recompiling the game kernel. Such servers are surprisingly
common.
> 1. So much support for a radically different system that to
> change it requires almost a complete rewrite.
This is definitionally unavoidable in ANY system, game or not, given
that it is:
a) sufficiently internally self-referential. (eg gravity affects
everything, all player actions require some strength value, etc etc
etc).
b) that the system attempts internal logical consistancy.
You can try and build a system which is leveragable into different
systems, but the result is that you don't define the current system
with sufficient detail to actually define the precise behaviours with
the result...
> 2. No support for any game system whatsoever, forcing full
> implementation from scratch no matter what game system you
> intend to use.
...that you end up here (from my last para).
>The real problem, I think, lies with motivations. It seems like
>almost every GS developer these days is involved in this for the
>technical study; they want to make the best, fastest, most ungodly
>brilliant GS you can run. They want full control over the whole thing
>from command interfaces. But where this breaks down is where someone
>logs in and discovers that they need to use some odd sort of syntax
>to represent something.
ie user interface definition where user interface is defined in two
ways: as the interface to the game world, and the interface to the
game system. My view is that properly done one has little logically
to do with the other.
>They may very well say "Well, if
>you don't understand the commands, then you shouldn't be playing".
Reminiscent of the last BBS I ran. The logon screen included the
message:
This BBS is an intelligence test. If you have any questions on
the operation or best use of this BBS that you are not able to
answer within the BBS you will have failed the intelligence
test. In that case please logoff immediately.
(Paraphrased -- I don't have the original handy)
>The problem, as I see it, is that when the developer creates the game
>server, there is rarely a middle-of-the-road approach. It's either
>very very tight, making the server applicable only to a small number
>of people, or very very loose, making the server applicable to
>absolutely no one until the time is taken to modify it.
cf Nightmare, LIMA, ColdCore, LambdaCore, MOOMinimal, etc.
>I've got a lot more in the way of comments and opinions on this
>matter...
Not a lot I disagree with so far. Most of it is largely unarguable --
essentially a reporting of what you have observed and your conclusions
there from. What is missing is a proposed interpretation and
addressing of your observations.
Ie we're at:
Guy stands on a mountain and looks out:
"The world is big and flat and green."
Some may argue that its also bumpy (he's standing on a bump after
all), or that there are more colours in the endless grassy plains that
surround him. but mostly its a good clear, simple report of what was
seen. Now lets dig into that mountain and that plain, and how they
may be represented, and manipulated, or what they could be profitably
replaced by or augmented by.
>This is intended to be a dialogue, not a monologue. :)
Ahh.
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw#null,net
(Contractor) Internet: coder#ibm,net
---------------(*) Internet: clawrenc#cup,hp.com
...Honorary Member Clan McFUD -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...
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<li><strong><A NAME="01529" HREF="msg01529.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> caliban#darklock,com (Caliban Tiresias Darklock)</li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="01392" HREF="msg01392.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> caliban#darklock,com (Caliban Tiresias Darklock)</LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01369" HREF="msg01369.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>,
clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Fri 20 Jun 1997, 07:14 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01384" HREF="msg01384.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>,
Martin Keegan <a href="mailto:martin#cam,sri.com">martin#cam,sri.com</a>, Fri 20 Jun 1997, 17:22 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01392" HREF="msg01392.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>,
Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Sat 21 Jun 1997, 06:59 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01413" HREF="msg01413.html">[MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>,
Brandon Cline <a href="mailto:brandon#merlin,sedona.net">brandon#merlin,sedona.net</a>, Sun 22 Jun 1997, 06:55 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01505" HREF="msg01505.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>,
clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Thu 26 Jun 1997, 07:51 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01529" HREF="msg01529.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>,
Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Thu 26 Jun 1997, 15:40 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
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<LI><strong><A NAME="01371" HREF="msg01371.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Fri 20 Jun 1997, 12:55 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01403" HREF="msg01403.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sat 21 Jun 1997, 16:41 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01412" HREF="msg01412.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>,
Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Sun 22 Jun 1997, 04:53 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
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