<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Life --> <!--X-From-R13: Oqnz Ivttvaf <avtugsnyyNvasvpnq.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: from fabius.globecomm.net [207.51.48.6] by in4.ibm.net id 865342952.47526-1 Tue Jun 3 13:02:32 1997 CUT --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199706031302.GAA23394#user2,inficad.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 199706020647.SAA11566#tao,sans.vuw.ac.nz --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg01096.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01098.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg01051.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01121.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#01097">Author</A> | <A HREF="#01097">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#01097">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Adam Wiggins <<A HREF="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:02:49 -0700 (MST)</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> [Jamie L:] > Adam Wiggins writes: > > This is another thing I have a problem with. People expect their > > characters to live forever. > > Do they? I don't think you can infer that from the six-year-old > child example. Being upset at a particular end to a character - > particularly with no former warning - seems to be a perfectly > 'reasonable' reaction. Sorry if this wasn't clear, but I wasn't making that comment in reference to the 6-year-old, I was making it in comments to some other things someone (Caliban?) said. Personally, I find the method of that characters demise disgusting and the furthest thing I can think of from 'fun', and I hope nothing like that ever happens on my mud. Being upset at an end to a character is fine, but there's upset as in you aren't really happy with the way it turned out, and then there's upset as in you're in severe emotional shock, you complain to the admin, etc etc. This is not fun for anyone involved. > That is, a player may be willing to have their character die, but in > an appropriate fashion at a time more of their choosing. Or any number > of other options. Well, I guess this goes back to the kind of game you want. What I like about muds is that they are complete worlds, worlds that carry on whether I'm there or not - worlds which I may or may not be able to exert control over. Things happen in them which are not ideal for my character, including death. I don't want to feel completely helpless, like I'm being swept away in a tide - but neither do I want to feel like my actions direct 100% of what happens to my character. I like the interaction between my character's actions (directed by me) and the rest of the game world (direted by other players, the builders, the coders, and so forth). Death at a time of their choosing, aside from suicide or self-sacrifice (throwing yourself on the grenade), seems ludicrous to me. If I decide where and when I'm going to die, there's never any feeling of danger or excitement, two things that I want to get out of a good mud. > > Lastly, yes I do expect people to just say, 'oh well'. It's a game. > > It's a character, a figment of your imagination. > > Yes, and no. Figments of the imagination can be very powerful. I know > of one deeply IC roleplayer (not a MUDder, to my knowledge) who loses > part of herself, in a sense, when a character of hers dies - she can't > go back into that particular mindset, etc. It's all very well to say This is great - but I don't see how that precludes the character ever reaching their demise. All things must end, even good things. (This makes the time you have with them that much sweeter, to my mind.) > "oh well", but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. I guess I still don't see where the 'problem' is, exactly. If you want to play a game where you know your character can live forever, do so. If not, why is it a 'problem' when they die? I'm not saying that you will necessarily be happy about their demise, or that you won't miss playing them, etc etc. I don't consider any of this stuff 'problems'. > Now, I think this is all basically a matter of game contract. If the > contract allows for this sort of behaviour, and everyone is informed > about the contract, then complaining about that fate would be > pointless - though that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't upsetting to > the player concerned. I do think, though, that contracts could be made > more explicit than they are on many MUDs, which would most likely help > to avoid some of the difficulties that example brings up. Agreed 100%. I've posted many times to r.g.m.a on exactly this topic. It's unfair to expect players to play a game when they don't even know the basic premise, rules, etc from the outset. > > You don't cry when you get to the end of a good book, or a good > > movie, because it doesn't go on any longer > > Speak for yourself. Heh, I always do. Guess I should rephrase that as "*I* don't cry because a good thing is over." I lament it, particularly if it ended (to my mind) in an unsatisfying or too-early manner, but I don't write to the author asking what the hell their problem was, why the ended the book so soon, etc etc .. > > - you think, 'Wow, that was a great book. Think I'll go buy another > > one now.' > > Which is not incompatible with the above, please note. My original point was that people get very upset over something good being finished, instead of being glad for the experience while it lasted and then moving on to something new. I guess the live-forever characters found on a lot of muds are the equivilent of those series of books which go on seemingly forever, with the character basically just doing more of the same in each one - like all those Conan pastiches that continue to come out. Really the character was best expressed by RE Howard's stories in the 20's and 30's, and everything after that has only really served to cheapen and stereotype an otherwise good character. </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="01121" HREF="msg01121.html">[MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Jamie Norrish <jamie#sans,vuw.ac.nz></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="01051" HREF="msg01051.html">[MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Jamie Norrish <jamie#sans,vuw.ac.nz></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01096.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Room-based vs. coordinate-based</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01098.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Room-based vs. coordinate-based</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01051.html">[MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01121.html">[MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#01097"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#01097"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00993" HREF="msg00993.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</a>, Sat 31 May 1997, 17:14 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01029" HREF="msg01029.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Mon 02 Jun 1997, 05:00 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01049" HREF="msg01049.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Mon 02 Jun 1997, 12:40 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01051" HREF="msg01051.html">[MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Jamie Norrish <a href="mailto:jamie#sans,vuw.ac.nz">jamie#sans,vuw.ac.nz</a>, Mon 02 Jun 1997, 13:40 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01097" HREF="msg01097.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</a>, Tue 03 Jun 1997, 20:02 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01121" HREF="msg01121.html">[MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Jamie Norrish <a href="mailto:jamie#sans,vuw.ac.nz">jamie#sans,vuw.ac.nz</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 06:03 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01127" HREF="msg01127.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 10:40 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01132" HREF="msg01132.html">[MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Jamie Norrish <a href="mailto:jamie#sans,vuw.ac.nz">jamie#sans,vuw.ac.nz</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 11:07 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01066" HREF="msg01066.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Tue 03 Jun 1997, 03:53 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>