<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] RP/PG examples --> <!--X-From-R13: pnyvonaNqnexybpx.pbz (Qnyvona Fverfvnf Rnexybpx) --> <!--X-Date: from major.globecomm.net [207.51.48.5] by in4.ibm.net id 865320633.46546-1 Tue Jun 3 06:50:33 1997 CUT --> <!--X-Message-Id: 3399b45c.24223847#relay,mnsinc.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 199706030130.SAA12304#xsvr3,cup.hp.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] RP/PG examples</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg01085.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01087.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg01076.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00981.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#01086">Author</A> | <A HREF="#01086">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#01086">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] RP/PG examples</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] RP/PG examples</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</A> (Caliban Tiresias Darklock)</LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 06:52:36 GMT</LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:23:49 PST8PDT, clawrenc#cup,hp.com wrote: >In <<A HREF="msg00989.html">3391bd5b.32580552#relay,mnsinc.com</A>>, on 06/01/97 > at 09:36 AM, caliban#darklock,com (Caliban Tiresias Darklock) said: > >>Your example is fallacious. The RPer expects the system to stay out >>of his way. The powergamer uses the system to get his way. > >You appear to be restating my point. Let me try a different tactic. The RPer (in my opinion) does not work 'within' the system. The RPer works without regard or concern for the system. The system itself is a necessary annoyance. The RPer is instead concerned with the end result -- in the word processor example, he wants a document. If the software is in his way, he will circumvent it and complain about bad design just as much as the powergamer might. The powergamer, on the other hand, is not particularly concerned with how well the system works, but with how many toys it gives him to play with. He wants more spells, more classes, more skills and mobs and areas and locations and quests. The powergamer is more likely to consider an area based on Monty Python and the Holy Grail acceptable, because it's a toy and it's cool. The RPer is likely to consider it frivolous and inappropriate to the standard heroic fantasy setting. Using a separate example, the powergamer will buy CorelDRAW before PhotoShop because PhotoShop only has 48 filters or so and doesn't include a 3-D rendering package or a vector drawing program. It's a question of relevance. If what you have is a need to modify photographs, the RPer would select PhotoShop because it supports photo editing very well. On the other hand, CorelDRAW supports photo editing pretty well, and adds a bunch of other neat things to the mix, so the powergamer would more likely choose Corel for its flexibility and versatility even if he never uses most of the tools. It's worth noting here that there is no inherent good or evil to the two groups; they're just two different sides of the idea. What I take issue with in your example is that your RPer sounds like some sort of sheep. What you seem to be saying is that if you hand an RPer a plate of dog crap, he'll smile and thank you, whereas the powergamer would start complaining that you gave him dog crap. Nothing could be further from the truth. The powergamer would probably follow you around screaming about being given dog crap and demand that you fix him a steak, but the RPer would figure out some way to sell the dog crap and go to McDonald's. He won't get a steak, but he won't go hungry either. On the other hand, if you handed that powergamer a Big Mac, he'd probably sit around grumbling that he wanted a steak. My point, lest it be assumed that I'm arguing the relative merits of RP versus PG, is that the two styles have vastly different needs and wants. It's not that either style is better; just different. And these differences show up in the design of the game and its underlying systems; a game that makes a powergamer happy is not likely to make an RPer happy, and vice versa. My concern is whether a compromise can be made in these styles, such that with some adjustments the two camps can coexist. -+[caliban#darklock,com]+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- I am here to grind your eyes harder into the miasmic bile of life; to show you the truth and the beauty in the whisper of steel on silk and the crimson scent of blood as it rises to meet the caress of a blade. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+[<A HREF="http://www.darklock.com/]+-">http://www.darklock.com/]+-</A> </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="01076" HREF="msg01076.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> clawrenc#cup,hp.com</LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01085.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] The reality of constant combat??</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01087.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01076.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00981.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#01086"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#01086"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="01092" HREF="msg01092.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Tue 03 Jun 1997, 18:16 GMT </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00972" HREF="msg00972.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Sat 31 May 1997, 07:02 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00989" HREF="msg00989.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Sat 31 May 1997, 15:27 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01076" HREF="msg01076.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Tue 03 Jun 1997, 08:32 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01086" HREF="msg01086.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP/PG examples</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Tue 03 Jun 1997, 13:50 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00981" HREF="msg00981.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Sat 31 May 1997, 11:18 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01023" HREF="msg01023.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Mon 02 Jun 1997, 03:33 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00986" HREF="msg00986.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Sat 31 May 1997, 12:46 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01018" HREF="msg01018.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Mon 02 Jun 1997, 02:23 GMT </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>