<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Life --> <!--X-From-R13: pnyvonaNqnexybpx.pbz (Qnyvona Fverfvnf Rnexybpx) --> <!--X-Date: from stimpy.globecomm.net [207.51.48.4] by in1.ibm.net id 865316004.194110-1 Tue Jun 3 05:33:24 1997 CUT --> <!--X-Message-Id: 3395a3ed.20016001#relay,mnsinc.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: Marcel-1.09-0602210811-06cKy&5#Gryphon,iaehv.nl --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg01077.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01081.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg01066.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01088.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#01080">Author</A> | <A HREF="#01080">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#01080">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</A> (Caliban Tiresias Darklock)</LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 05:35:23 GMT</LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:03:04 PST8PDT, Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl> wrote: >What was really wrong of this player's part is that he involved another >player in a plot without in the least attempting to figure out how she >felt about the whole situation. This is where a roleplaying game should >still be a -game-. All involved must have fun. While it may be in-char- >acter it wasn't much fun for the victim. This is completely correct. It's the major impetus for consent policies on MU*s, but these carry their own inherent abuses; I recall one game where several players decided they didn't like certain of my character's fairly gained abilities, and therefore would not consent to my use of them in their presence. This is carrying things a little far; it's like saying 'I don't think it's fair that you can cast fireballs, so you aren't allowed to cast them around me'. >> Where's the challenge in conking a six-year-old over the head and >> killing her? > >This is an unfair comparison. I'm sure that Adam hadn't something like >this in mind when he mentioned challenge and conflict. Besides he is >right that even a totally non-combat rp game still revolves round con- >flicts. Even if the conflict is planned ahead by the parties involved. The problem I have with it is that Adam's entire notion of conflict seemed to be fighting to the death, and no matter how it happens it's just part of the game and shouldn't upset anyone. My point is that there are a LOT of types of conflict, and death is not the only possible result. There is a lot more enjoyment to be gained from starting a long-term grudge and enmity than there is to be gained from 'Ugh! You die now!' *THUMP* >> One of us put him to sleep, and then we called staff >> and said we were taking him to my basement. > >This was, in its own way, equally unjustified as this player's original >act was. While it may have put his perception of what he'd done to the >other player into better perspective, it still comes down to doing the >same to him what you blamed him for doing in the first place. He was already a wanted man, and would have been removed from the game if we had just turned him in to the police. They had him cold... just needed someone to see him and call a cop. And if he had shot and killed the brother of a mafioso, an assassination would have been perfectly in order -- when you screw with someone that has powerful friends, you tend to get hurt. Even if you didn't know they had friends like that. The difference was that if the cops had been called or an assassination attempt had been made, there would have been some sort of chase and/or scene that the molester's player might have found enjoyable. He didn't deserve that, so we demonstrated his logic; we had a perfectly good reason to do it. The death of the child could not be undone, and neither could his -- but HIS removal from the game was a foregone conclusion. We merely robbed him of the enjoyment he might have taken in that character's demise. Our justification was his actions, not his existence. >> The major difference was that he had done something to deserve it. > >I've been thinking hard about this topic and have come to the con- >clusion that I don't belief this justice should be drawn out. If a >player does something grossly unacceptable then his character must >be deleted. I know from personal experience that watching your tor- >mentor suffer is satisfying but it left a bad taste all the same. Deleting the character would have been unconscionable. in-game actions, in-game consequences -- if he had deliberately harassed the child's player through non-game methods like channels and tells, it would have been a different story; these are player actions rather than character actions, and would merit a different sort of punishment. However, given the in-game knowledge we needed to recognise him and the in-game ability to mete out our own brand of justice, we did so. Within the game context. It's worth noting that he did go off and complain to staff about it, and after some discussion of the matter, the staff member who had backed up his murder of the child was dismissed from service and the player was given some very pointed education on the subject of justifiable actions in a roleplay setting. The matter was handled both in and out of game context. The in-game handling provided several of the more outraged players with some sort of satisfaction, including the player of the child, who passively observed some of the rather extreme methods we used to take care of the situation once the molester's player had been dismissed. We made rather lurid and graphic descriptions of the molester's fate for something in excess of two hours. It's truly shocking how long you can keep a human being alive if you really try. -+[caliban#darklock,com]+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- I am here to grind your eyes harder into the miasmic bile of life; to show you the truth and the beauty in the whisper of steel on silk and the crimson scent of blood as it rises to meet the caress of a blade. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+[<A HREF="http://www.darklock.com/]+-">http://www.darklock.com/]+-</A> </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="01108" HREF="msg01108.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="01088" HREF="msg01088.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Adam Wiggins <nightfall#user1,inficad.com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="01066" HREF="msg01066.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01077.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...]</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01081.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01066.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01088.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#01080"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#01080"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Life</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="01121" HREF="msg01121.html">[MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Jamie Norrish <a href="mailto:jamie#sans,vuw.ac.nz">jamie#sans,vuw.ac.nz</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 06:03 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01127" HREF="msg01127.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 10:40 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01132" HREF="msg01132.html">[MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Jamie Norrish <a href="mailto:jamie#sans,vuw.ac.nz">jamie#sans,vuw.ac.nz</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 11:07 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="01066" HREF="msg01066.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Tue 03 Jun 1997, 03:53 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01080" HREF="msg01080.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Tue 03 Jun 1997, 12:33 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01088" HREF="msg01088.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Tue 03 Jun 1997, 17:35 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01108" HREF="msg01108.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 01:45 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01104" HREF="msg01104.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 01:23 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01162" HREF="msg01162.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Thu 05 Jun 1997, 07:04 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>