<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Levels: An abstraction of character abilities. --> <!--X-From-R13: "Xba O. Znzoreg" <wyflfvapNvk.argpbz.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: from 207.51.48.154 [207.51.48.154] by mx01.ca.us.ibm.net id 863709782.42760-1 Thu May 15 15:23:02 1997 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199705151521.KAA02183@dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Levels: An abstraction of character abilities.</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00477.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00481.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00858.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00483.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00479">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00479">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00479">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Levels: An abstraction of character abilities.</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Levels: An abstraction of character abilities. </LI> <LI><em>From</em>: "Jon A. Lambert" <<A HREF="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:24:45 -0400</LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> > From: clawrenc#cup,hp.com > >> On Fri 09 May, Miroslav Silovic wrote: > > >Now while this addresses the problem of making people *not* fight, it > >doesn't give them other things to do. Another problem you didn't > >mention is that on many MUDs, the fastest way to get experience (and > >rise in power) is by killing mobs. (for that matter, I wonder how > >would giving negative XP for killing affect the player base *evil > >snicker*). > > I'm firmly of the view that levels, classes, XP, HP etc should have > been adandoned long long ago as models for a game. They promote > short-circuited silly solutions to really quite enjoyable problems. > I thought I'd start new threads out of these concepts. This one relating specifically to the Level abstraction. I both agree and disagree with you. I think the problem lies in the current use of these abstractions. Many muds derived from DIKU and some LP libs are basing these abstractions on the game D&D which I think is quite a poor system for attempting to model reality. Take levels for instance. In DIKU and in D&D, a character's level has great effects on combat, spell use, etc. Its almost an absolute indicator of a relative power. Its no wonder that the primary goal of such systems is "to level". The abstraction has become the the goal of the game. D&D is purported to be an RPG, though it is crippled by system mechanics which make the game equipment driven, since the only way to mitigate level differences is to have better and badder equipment. Thus the term "level" has a very bad connotation. I use levels as an abstraction of the learning process which is really an analog state. Its much like the model of a public school system. While it is reasonable to suspect that one at the 11th grade level is more developed than one at an 6th grade level, there is no way of knowing which of these students is more proficient in dagger or which is more proficient in fireballs. The primary difference between the 6th and 11th grader is time (age). That is my use of character levels. They are just general markers in time that indicate opportunity for development. I also use levels in skill development. I call them ranks. This is a more solid guideline on which to measure proficiency. Its much like a karate school that teaches one specific skill. A rank of 20 in sweeps and throws is certainly more proficient than rank 10. How does this relate to the general character level above? Well if we assume the 6th and 11th grader are both karate fanatics, there is a good chance the 11th grader is further along in their training. This is still a simplification as I also take into account natural ability (stats & talents) and adolescent background (cultural, social & professional). I guess its also important to say, that there is no way of knowing anothers level in any general way, except through social interaction or through observation of one exercising a given skill. As a sidenote, I also allow a number of skills like "mimicry" which allow a character to fake skills they may have observed in others. > Bubba warns, "Back off Boffo! I'm a grand master of Foo!" > Bubba waves his arms about and assumes the traditional Foo Monkey position. So in large part the concept of "levels" is internal to the game system and not "external". As such I have my qualms about making it visible to the player. I am also aware that human animals love to measure each other. ( particularly, males of this species *grin* ) JL </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00483" HREF="msg00483.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Levels: An abstraction of character abilities.</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Adam Wiggins <nightfall#inficad,com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00477.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Introduction</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00481.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Levels (was: Administrative notes)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00858.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Languages</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00483.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Levels: An abstraction of character abilities.</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00479"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00479"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Languages</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00788" HREF="msg00788.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Languages</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Mon 26 May 1997, 02:03 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00810" HREF="msg00810.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Languages</A></strong>, coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Mon 26 May 1997, 22:52 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00796" HREF="msg00796.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Languages</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Mon 26 May 1997, 04:43 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00858" HREF="msg00858.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Languages</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Wed 28 May 1997, 01:56 GMT </LI> </ul> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00479" HREF="msg00479.html">[MUD-Dev] Levels: An abstraction of character abilities.</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Thu 15 May 1997, 22:23 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00483" HREF="msg00483.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Levels: An abstraction of character abilities.</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</a>, Thu 15 May 1997, 23:39 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00478" HREF="msg00478.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Disk v. Mem</A></strong>, Chris Gray <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Thu 15 May 1997, 21:58 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00474" HREF="msg00474.html">Re: Role-playing</A></strong>, Khanone <a href="mailto:Khanone#aol,com">Khanone#aol,com</a>, Thu 15 May 1997, 02:16 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00499" HREF="msg00499.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Role-playing</A></strong>, Shawn Halpenny <a href="mailto:malachai#iname,com">malachai#iname,com</a>, Fri 16 May 1997, 22:39 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>