Logging is being enabled. Leto is moderating. The floor is open for discussion. The room is not locked. Local host time is Sun May 5 00:19:27 1996. The following users are in attendance: Deathknight Rayjack Rust Skylight Brainstorm Lucas Leto Lucas says: good Leto says: oki Leto is moderating. The floor is open for discussion. The room is not locked. Local host time is Sun May 5 00:20:03 1996. The following users are in attendance: Deathknight Rayjack Rust Skylight Brainstorm Lucas Leto Leto says: let me see Leto says: "And the Lord said onto the servante 'Let there be wine'" Leto says: oops, wrong paper Deathknight whines. Brainstorm says: Hmm, no whisky ? Leto says: hmm this 'say' indeed acts weird Leto says: sigh Rust says: Yea, some guy named 'Leto' wrote it, I think ;-) Leto says: Moby wrote the conf room ;) Rust says: ug, that'd explain it ;-) Skylight lafs. Leto says: well, let me check if logging works ;) Lucas once had a long meeting with not log... It sucked. Leto falls down laughing. Leto says: let's start Leto says: there are a few things that we need to know Leto says: we need o know if people want to develop more at tmi-2 Deathknight says: Um, Leto says: and if there is stuff to do, who will do which parts Deathknight says: I think that question should be separated into 2 strains Leto says: which are? Deathknight says: 1) Develope further with existing code Deathknight says: (IE, add on) Deathknight says: 2) Rewrite/revamp existing code Leto says: (says do work, even though you don't see your own) Leto says: true Rust says: blah, I prefer to lump them together, Deathknight says: can't be Leto says: but developing on can oly be done after a revamp :) Rust says: either you're changing the mudlib, or you're writing a new one Rust says: sure you can Deathknight says: one involves rewriting existing code to be more efficient and usually more functional Rust says: developing is a process that isn't so concretely laid out as adding on or revamping Deathknight says: the other doesn't touch existing code except to add features Rust says: Neither one of these will happen in isolation Leto says: ok. Rust says: This is really freaky not seeing what I'm saying Leto says: hold on :) Rust says: I feel like I'm on a 2.4.5 Deathknight says: I don't get a prompt back when it happens either, so it may be an error somewhere Brainstorm says: I mean if you only add on not changing existing code you will reach an end somewhere wont you ? Rust says: well, like I said, you're always changing existing code ;-) Lucas says: i think i remember fixing that say bug on conf rooms on avatar Leto says: anyway Leto says: anyone hears me right Leto says: ;et's ignore this feature :) Rust says: test Leto says: there are more important hings Leto says: Oh doh Observation is being disabled. Leto says: test? Leto says: good :) Rust says: woo! Leto says: everyone happyt again ? :) Deathknight says: test Brainstorm says: Hmm ... Leto says: this bloody codes doesn't check to see if anyone is in the observation room Leto says: and someone wrote a damn override to tell_room ;) Leto says: ok Leto says: so, i think there are enough people Leto says: willing to develope here Leto says: also Skylight says: blah u guys are still talking about this conf_room ? Leto says: it is still used as support site Leto says: so, i have a feeling we could go on developing Leto says: however, we need to have a goal Leto says: someone 'fixing tmi-2' isnt enough i believe Skylight says: let's rewrite the whole mudlib Deathknight says: it's be enough for a preliminary outline Leto says: bugfixes are nice, but if that's all we do, i am going to stop Deathknight says: but would need sub-points Skylight says: change the skill system to something else..right now the skill system sucks Deathknight has a few suggestions. Deathknight says: for skills Leto says: well, in my opinion the low level obs need a total redo Brainstorm says: You might also want to improve a bit on combat and magic ;) Lucas says: on avatar, i have reworked a bunch of stuff Leto says: it's one big lump of inherits that try to fix a mudos bug that isn't there anymore Leto says: but Leto says: if we look into the future Rayjack says: which bug was that? Leto says: we should aim for graphics support Skylight says: what? graphics support? Leto says: java, www Deathknight says: fairly simple Leto says: those are the things of the future Brainstorm says: Hmm Leto says: i am not yet talking about "graphical muds" Brainstorm says: What about the amcp client ? Leto says: those have never been successful Lucas says: ah. ok Deathknight says: tmi has always represented emerging technologies and designs Leto says: hold on Deathknight says: I think it's appropriate it continues to do so Leto says: basically, what i thnk should be the first goal and Leto says: and whill need some recoding of current things Leto says: is a good support for using netscape/java to mud Leto says: i don't mean reinventing telnet in netscape Leto says: i don't mean reinventing those "bsd" graphical muds Leto says: but finctional graphical support to the text based game Deathknight says: that system (BSXS) can only be taken so far Leto says: well, anyone looked at alphaworlds? Terry says: Have any of you checked out the Pueblo graphical client ? Leto says: it just won't work yet Leto says: nope Skylight says: why don't we rewrite some backbones first before adding some new stuff? err just my 2 cents Brainstorm says: They only got DOS/Windows support so far Leto says: Sky Leto says: that's my point, we NEED to :) Terry says: It uses html-ish tags to add graphics/sound support to text based MUDs. Leto says: now, who would like to help? Leto says: terry: amcp is like that too Deathknight raises his hand. Leto says: we need t come up with somehing that uses browsers as best possible Rust says: problem is, all of these things are going to be done better far before you get to them Leto says: by ? Rust says: I know Descartes will roll out a Java mud a lot sooner than you think Terry says: Heh Leto says: well Leto says: descartes implements what HE thinks is right Leto says: it's usually not a broad support idea Rust says: He's got a pretty good grasp, actually. Leto says: it's his own static beliefs Deathknight says: tends to have a specific focus Leto says: i want to keep the tmi spirit in here Leto says: broad support, lots of features Deathknight says: great for that focus, but hard to transfer Leto says: configuration Leto says: also Leto says: Descartes has a disadvantadge Leto says: he tends to piss off people, and they own't work with him ;) Leto says: anyway Leto says: nuff about that Deathknight says: working alone puts too much pressure on one person Leto says: wether or not others will do Leto says: i wasn't insulting descartes Rust says: Well, that's the only reason NM only did better than TMI instead of kicking its butt. Leto says: descartes is a nice chap with just some views that are not mine Deathknight says: good way of phrasing it leto Leto says: anyway Leto says: we need three things Skylight says: hmm, so are we talking about descartes now? or about tmi? :) Leto says: 1).. a good site Leto says: 2)... inventory of things to do Leto says: 3).. people, time and deadlines for those things Lucas says: is this a good site, or not? Leto says: about 1) Leto says: Armando wants us to move out Deathknight says: initially, people to at least organize the effort Deathknight says: oh, joy Leto says: this machine will be ripped apart in a few weeks Brainstorm says: Ugh. Leto says: unless we convince him to keep it Deathknight says: how can we do that? Brainstorm says: Who is him ? Skylight says: Armando Skylight says: i think Leto says: yep Leto says: Armando Deathknight says: leto? what about your company? Leto says: well Leto says: the problem there is that i am on a pay-per-byte line Deathknight says: or would it be too much of a strain? Deathknight says: problem with europe Leto says: as long as i don't have flat-reate i don't think i can sponsor it Lucas says: would descartes let us use imaginary.com ? Deathknight says: he did before Rust says: Uh? Deathknight says: but we can't reside there I don't think Leto says: i don't think so Rust says: I don't think he's got enough ram for another mud Leto says: discworld , nm and foundation are enough as it is :) Deathknight says: We could however probably convince him to serve the name tmi.imaginary.com Deathknight says: even if not on his machines Leto says: think so too, after we talk to Buddha Rust says: no probably in it ;-) Leto says: but before i do that, i want a goal Leto says: i want plans Skylight says: if u guys cna't find a site..i can let u guys use my extra site Leto says: and i want people Skylight says: not too fast though Leto says: nod. we'll see what happens Leto says: first Leto says: i'd like to be convinced something will get off the ground Deathknight says: no point if we don't organize properly Leto says: i tried doing this before when i created team-aye Leto says: lots of people said yes Leto says: hardly anyone did anything Lucas says: well, Atlas says: normal problem Leto says: so Lucas says: i can try to do stuff Leto says: i think we should try the following Leto says: between now and two weeks Leto says: try to get people, and try to get ideas Leto says: we should make a list Leto says: have meetings every week Brainstorm says: Dont you think that some outlines should be put down now ? Leto says: the outlines are hopefully in the conference room logfile :) Deathknight says: should we try to outline now, or review existing code and base outlines on that? Brainstorm says: Like you said the movement to broader support of graphics, perhaps even music ? Leto says: yep Leto says: sporry Leto says: i meant: Leto says: support for browsers Deathknight says: at least the first part of the outline should be based on existing code Leto says: which means graphs , sound, html, anims Leto says: true Brainstorm says: nice ... Leto says: the first goal is debug the lib Leto says: and revamp some Leto says: esp the messages stuff Rust says: properties Skylight says: messages stuff? Deathknight says: I've done my own hacking in amylaar's driver to do a better messaging system Leto says: nod all the writes,tell_objs, tell_rooms, wraps,iwrap,shells,amcp Brainstorm says: I guess the messages.h should be rmed and made new ;) Leto says: screen layout is done throughout the lib Deathknight says: leto: I could also put together a stream system based on that Leto says: it should be centralized Deathknight says: IE, piping, output redirection Leto says: sounds good, write some specs on it. Leto says: /std/object is another one Leto says: and , as rust said Leto says: we should fix properties Rust says: Bah, get some new features, Dk. ;-) Brainstorm says: Hmm, what about better documentation ? Leto says: that's always good :) Brainstorm says: Doesnt Lima do source code created docs ? Leto says: we'll need to write down what docs are missing, which are outdated and fix those Skylight says: nod those docs are fearsome Leto says: we might even consider using a databased one Leto says: and hook the driver to msql Rust says: There's already a database package Brainstorm says: m-sql sounds nice. Leto says: write a auth module for the Apache web server Rust says: Lima does, nod Skylight says: FotD does, nod Leto says: since we will want a real server to serve most stuff Leto says: the db package is still buggy though ;) Rust says: Heh, get your own ideas, FotD ;-) Leto says: so Leto says: let's write some code so we can supply all this Leto says: boards are kinda outdated ;) Rust says: well, come on, it's not like it wasn't our good idea ;-) Leto says: and i don't think the IE news system is the way to go Lucas says: i know most people hate boards, and want groups Lucas says: but i think we should integrate boards with it Leto says: tmi has it Rust says: Lima's rocks ;-) Leto says: but i don't think the user interface at ie is very good Lucas says: because i really like having boards, Skylight says: laf rust is doing a commercial here Rust says: Nah Leto says: i think lima is similar in that way :) Lucas says: and it seems better for players Rust says: Lima used to be the TMI-3 project tho Leto says: it sucks :) Rust says: no way, it's nothing like it... Leto says: does it show a page of headers now ? Leto says: so we ca skip things? Rust says: It can easily, nod. Rust says: read the help ;-) Leto says: answer the Q please :) Rust says: yes Leto says: yes or no :) Leto says: that's an improvement Leto says: but we want it to interface with netscape too :) Brainstorm says: Ugh Leto says: ugh to make it yes :) Leto says: remember though Leto says: soon, we will have a generation of people who don't know computers Leto says: just know how to browse Brainstorm says: Sadly but almost very true Leto says: not sad really Leto says: i don't know shit about cars :) Brainstorm says: It is sad, if ppl say the Internet is WWW Leto says: i just want them to drive me around Brainstorm says: But its the way you do it Leto says: opk Leto says: apart from us Brainstorm says: You dont want one way consumation, you want intelligent two way communication Leto says: there are a couple of people who couldn't bere here and shoed intrest Leto says: did you say "java" brainstorm ? :) Brainstorm just got java installed here ;) Leto says: so, i'd say that's our most important goal for now, inventorize goals, and people Leto says: So Brainstorm says: Might a mailing list help in the beginning ? Timezones and such ? Leto says: anyone ? Lucas says: i think mailing list would be very helpful Lucas says: i volunteer to help work on stuff Leto says: i ca support one in a few days Brainstorm says: *nod* Leto says: when my domain gets propagated to the net Brainstorm says: YOu can afford a domain ? ;) Leto says: my company can :) Brainstorm says: I would like to help out also ;) Lucas says: i'm not the best coder, but i will do what i can Leto says: good :) Leto says: so, our first tasks are settled then Lucas says: but i also need to devote time on my mud Leto says: now, how will we go about writing down the plans? Leto says: most of us do Lucas says: i know Brainstorm says: Somebody taking the logs and writing a precy Leto says: but i mean Leto says: how are we going to submit ideas Leto says: and how are we going to submit code Brainstorm says: That might be a problem ;) Rust says: boggle, no one ever posted on that old TMI list that is probably still up Leto says: not a problem Brainstorm says: Leto, I guess you should have experience with former tmi Rust says: Not since we died Leto says: well Brainstorm would perfer shell accounts ;) Leto says: with tmi, most stuff was mailed Leto says: and not a lot was discussed Leto says: people who were trusted got access Leto says: and hacked their way into code Leto says: withot much structure Leto says: shell accounts would be nice Rust says: And who's giving them out? =) Leto says: esp if we're going to need aux. programs Brainstorm says: or perhaps angeftp with a modifed ftp server Leto says: mud ft works fine ;) Leto says: but Leto says: if we agree o using msql Leto says: and put our character base in there Leto says: we can hack wu-ftpd :) Brainstorm says: Sorry ? Leto says: eg if we store characters not in .o files put in a database Leto says: we can then use the database with other programs as well Leto says: like a real www server and a real ftp server Rust says: I fear becomind a moo ;-) Leto says: as long as you odn't fear we're becoming unix :) Rust says: No, that happened a long time ago =) Leto says: actually if we have a dedicated machine, logins might be the way to go :) Rust says: So come on, say something concrete =) Brainstorm says: If I had a machine I could set one up ;) Leto says: shaddup? Atlas says: I hacked /bin/login and bash on my computer so you can chroot to the mud directory Leto says: concrete enough ? :) Atlas says: kinda like a wizshell but no access checking as of yet Atlas says: could be an alternative to normal shell accounts Leto says: i hacked the linux kernel to allowe port 23 to be used by a non root process :) Brainstorm says: ? Leto says: so i can run the mud on a regular telnet port without ithaving to run as root :) Brainstorm says: Ah forget that ? *evil grin* Leto says: okay Leto says: so, i'd say the first step is people dropping ideas like crazy :) Leto says: and filing a list of bugs and revamps we desperately need Lucas says: ok Lucas says: will someone take notes than? Lucas says: now? or should we do it in a board like way? Leto says: i think we sould prolly for now make two news commands that are like 'bugs' Leto says: prob the easiest Leto says: then, at a meeting discussing the submitions Leto says: and, if neccessary, assign soneone on the implementation :) Leto says: oki Leto says: i'll make the nec things for thsi tomorrow Leto says: and I'll make the necc anouncements Brainstorm says: Uh, anyone care for a stupid question ? Leto says: shoot :) Brainstorm says: Is it a bug that in the user object a query("name") sometimes gives 0 and such ? and that a this_object->query("name") solves it ? Leto says: probably :) Leto says: in fact Leto says: this is a mjor design point Rayjack says: quite incredible that solving it Leto says: deathknight: /d/Conf/logs) Rust says: That should never ever happen, as calls are all virtual in LPC Atlas says: it happens tho Rust says: Well, probably a relic of some ancient driver bug Leto says: exactly Leto says: the whole inheritance of base obs is a hack really Deathknight hates coming in on the middle of a discussion Deathknight says: why do you say that leto? Leto says: it was made to fix a bug in inheritance code Rust says: yeah, it's going to be fun to watch someoneseperate stuff out into a decent inheritance structure without jumping off a bridge Leto says: a lot of stubs got insertd Leto says: to prevent mudos from making mistakes Leto says: then they needed to be overridden Deathknight says: ah, stubs you're referring to? Leto says: among other things Deathknight says: thought you meant the concept of having base object Leto says: nono Rust says: 1600 line user.c is not a good thing Leto says: but some things are badly done Deathknight says: agreed rust Leto says: what was i asayig? Leto says: Oh right Leto says: mudos added a lot of features Leto says: which we hardly use Leto says: eg: mudos can now keep track of obs and their relative locations a lot better then we can at the mudlib level Rust says: like real function pointers, classes, decent parsing, etc, etc, etc Leto says: there are other examples Brainstorm says: Though classes are still a hack ? Rust says: no Leto says: nono Rust says: they rock Leto says: classes are good Leto says: we should replace our proprties with it:) Rust says: they're the same as structs in C, though, not like C++ classes. Objects are like C++ classes Brainstorm says: Hmm, I remember them being a union or so in MUDos Leto says: anyway Leto says: I'll make the necc steps in order for people to submit ideas,bugs,codee Leto says: then we should take off :) Leto says: let's get most of the bugs out in 3 weeks :) Brainstorm says: You'll schedule a next meeting or write mail ? Leto says: so we can concentrate on redesigning :) Lucas says: noe questions, Leto says: well Lucas says: err. one question Leto says: i wass thinking of one set time Lucas says: these idea or wahever we are going to submit Leto says: so we can remember it easily ;) Lucas says: are these things like ideas for skill modifications or what? Leto says: not that speicific for now Rust says: or rewriting 99% of the mudlib? ;-) Leto says: the only real explicit things sould be bugs Lucas says: ok Brainstorm says: I would like to handle movement differently also ;) Leto says: agreed Brainstorm says: and make the combat limb orientated *smirk* Leto says: lots of things need to be done totally different Leto says: careful Lucas says: cause tigycho and i have a HUGE list of ideas we have Leto says: getting into details again :) Leto says: cool Lucas says: but thats more detailed things Leto says: submit it :) Brainstorm says: Was just joking Deathknight says: I don't think we should necissarily impose things like limb systems on people Deathknight says: but may have it as an option Lucas says: like last names, limbs, etc Leto says: you'd have to use body parts Leto says: like earth :) Brainstorm says: like SILKE ;) Leto begins to promote Earthmud :) Leto says: ;ets' tear down tmi and all work at earth :) Lucas says: so let me get stuff straight for me now Brainstorm says: Its only annyoing if you loose both legs Brainstorm says: and cant see a healer Leto says: lucas? Lucas says: ok, Lucas says: first, we're fixing bugs Lucas says: and that is in 3 weeks Lucas says: then, we'll regroup and plan again? Leto says: well Leto says: i think we'll need to tackle some redesign questions Leto says: since some bugs are due to design Rust says: like security Leto says: but i think a new release that's bugfree would bea nice start Brainstorm likes security ;) Deathknight says: security? Deathknight says: what's that? Rust says: Too bad it doesn't work ;-) Brainstorm says: Dreaming leto ? Leto says: rust Leto says: show me ;) Leto says: but Rust says: I still have a list of 10 holes somewhere that I doubt were fixed Deathknight says: a new release, probably 1.3 final or 1.4, doesn't change functionality so much as just a major bug fix Deathknight says: then we can start redesigning Rust says: the first time I found like 13 in a matter of hours Leto says: domini had some great ideas about changing access and privss :) Deathknight says: so did ellery leto Brainstorm says: Likke the calling stack ? Deathknight says: yet I think only about 4 people understood the mathematics of his security system Leto says: i remember i made it to being called Beek at lima too :) Leto says: well Leto says: security isn't a very big issue as some people make it really Leto says: a fairly decent system holds back 99.9% Leto says: and some people you just want to trust., Rust says: sure it is. I've seen 4 or 5 muds at least get completely wiped Deathknight says: tmi's only holds back about 85% or so though Leto says: backups ? Rust says: No, most people who are unix newbies aren't going to keep backups Brainstorm says: Rust, it's easier to get in the OS than in the MUD if you secure the MUD, so what ? Rust says: Not really Leto says: Rust, that's a point about certain people who shuldn't run a mud Rust says: It's much easier to get onto TMI Deathknight says: and they usually don't have much effort into their systems anyway Rust says: then you shouldn't be providing software to them Brainstorm says: Ah, show me a unix system, and most ppl can show you a root shell Rust says: well, effort isn't the important part Leto says: not true Leto says: i am not saying GNU shouldn';t make C compilers cause they can be abused Rayjack says: i've only seen 1 tmi mud get wiped, and it was done by a hole created on that mud Rust says: Sure it is, I've seen tons of systems that have seen a lot of effort that didn't stop a bowling ball Leto says: but clueless people shouldn't use things they don't know shit of Deathknight says: few tmi mudlibs are open to players either Leto says: most lp muds aren't open to players :) Leto says: only diku's and tiny's are open to the public ;) Deathknight says: more than tmi Deathknight says: this discussion is getting on a tangent Leto says: anbd the moo's ;) Leto says: but those are just irc interfaces ;) Leto says: oki Brainstorm says: I would like an AI for the npc also, is Blue still around ? Leto says: let's call it a quit for now Leto says: yep Leto says: Blue is around ;) Rust says: Don't expect to see him do much though =) Brainstorm says: So Blue shall make it. Leto says: but his AI project is in the freezer Leto says: he hasn't coded on it since he was at my palce ;) Deathknight says: I actually had an ai project on Shadowriver Brainstorm says: You should have kept him there then Deathknight says: the whole mudlib was going to be ai Leto says: actually Blue is heavily into java these days Leto says: we might convince him to work out with the java client part ;) Leto says: shadowriver? Leto says: didn't that mud live for a short time ? Brainstorm says: Sounds like this is getting quite complicated with all that client stuff Deathknight says: about a year leto Deathknight says: I took it down, lacked time to work on it Leto says: ahh nod Deathknight says: got a RL job Leto says: well Leto says: brainstorm Leto says: it's actually not that bad Leto says: since you can just let your code reutrn urls :) Deathknight says: relative ones Brainstorm says: Sorry, I was not thinking properly ;) Leto says: :) Brainstorm says: Dont comment on that, please. Leto says: oki Leto says: so, next meeting next week? Brainstorm says: Hmm Leto says: let's spread the word ;0 Brainstorm says: Same day ? Lucas says: i think same day, same time Brainstorm says: What about Friday or Sunday ? Atlas says: Hm.. what was the time, actually? :) Leto says: fine with me Brainstorm says: There is a german wide mud convention on saturday Deathknight says: time was 1 hour 10 mins ago Lucas says: fridays would be ok, but not sunday Leto says: hmm Leto says: fridays would prob do too Brainstorm says: Fine ;) Deathknight says: not for me Leto says: although i often have an earth meeting on friday Deathknight is gone all friday evening Leto says: let' stick to sat for now ? Lucas says: speaking of mud conventions (brainstorm) Brainstorm says: I'll read the logs ;) Lucas says: is anyone going to the one here in the states? Rust says: Oh yes Atlas says: when/where? Lucas says: cool Brainstorm says: Its about building an association to support MUDs in Germany Rust says: All of Lima except Ohara will be there Leto says: i might Leto says: but i want to know more first Lucas says: yeah Lucas says: i live in minneapolis Leto says: i am not going to pay afew thousand for a happy camping trip Lucas says: so it shouldn't be too hard for me (unless i'm gone) Leto says: i want at least some presentations Atlas says: when and where is the convention Rust says: I know I'm presenting at least one thing Deathknight says: where is it? Leto says: and the mailinglist fr mud-96 is deadish :) Lucas says: it's sometime around the end of july i THINK, in minneapolis, minnesota Rust says: not a publication for my CV, but hey Lucas says: minneapolis or st. paul Leto says: it's 26-29 july i tjhink Leto says: my bd's on the 24th, and my dad's the 27th Deathknight says: no way I could make that Leto says: really iritating Leto says: i told descartes anytime but that week Leto says: guess i am not welcome ;) Rust says: you're right, Leto ;-) Atlas says: uh.. far away, even if I get the job in NY Logging is being disabled. Leto is moderating. The floor is open for discussion. The room is not locked. Local host time is Sun May 5 01:37:09 1996. The following users are in attendance: Atlas Terry Deathknight Rayjack Rust Skylight Brainstorm Lucas Leto