12 Feb, 2010, KaVir wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
donky said:
It does make me wonder if you can make the whole game a tutorial. Perhaps have a tutorial mode.

I like this. It wouldn't even need to be an explicit "tutorial mode", either - I think it could be sufficient just to have a command or dynamic help file that suggests what you should do next, that is available if and when you want it. I suppose you could compare the concept with the GTA games; you can do whatever you want, but if you fancy following the storyline (or simply don't know what to do next) there are clear markers to follow that'll lead you from one activity to the next.

One very simple way of doing it would be to maintain list of activites, and just display the first activity that the player hasn't yet completed. If you prefer something a little more elaborate, perhaps a skill-tree/web style setup would be worth considering, with different activities unlocking new activities once completed.

The player could of course ignore the tutorial if they wished - but it could be drilled into them from the start that if they get stuck, they just have to type 'what' to see what to do next. In fact, when they first enter the game their prompt could even be set to something like "Type 'what' to see what to do next>", which remains there until they've typed 'what' the first time (i.e., typing 'what' literally becomes the first activity on the list).

I occasionally try out different muds, and frequently find myself thinking "What do I do now?" (and that's usually the point I start getting bored). I've also had players on my own mud ask that very same question. It really would be so much simpler if players could just type 'what' and be given a clear and precise objective that would allow them to progress further in the game, perhaps with some hints and suggestions as to how they can complete it.

Obviously most muds aren't very linear, and there are often situations where you've multiple activities available - but I don't think that really matters. I think the most important thing is that the players don't feel directionless, because that's when boredom kicks in.
12 Feb, 2010, Scandum wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
WoW accomplishes this quite well with its quest system. Toward the end of a series of quests in one area, you're given quests that lead you to two or more areas.

Grinding is faster to advance, but given WoW is pretty much entirely equipment based you are kind of forced to do at least some quests to obtain equipment. Personally I'm a fan of more open ended quests, which could be introduced in later stages of the game to at least keep some sense of adventure, instead of being a puppy taking orders.
12 Feb, 2010, Orrin wrote in the 3rd comment:
Votes: 0
In some ways I think this is what games like WoW achieve with their quest advancement system. It's almost like having a single player or "story mode" where you can follow the rails and be guided through the content until you "finish" the game. It certainly solves the problem of "what next?" or "where now?" by guiding the player to the next area and telling them what they should be doing there. Despite the popularity of this system in MMOs now it's not something I've seen a lot of in MUDs. Most MUDs have quests of different kinds, but it's unusual to be directed from area to area, hub to hub, with enough quest content to keep progressing through the game.

Another system I've seen on a couple of games are small tasks specifically for new players, often covering tutorial type information. For example you might have to slay a monster, visit a particular area, buy something from a shop, ride a mount, etc. The game could provide a list of these, or context sensitive suggestions as you describe. This type of system combines guidance and direction for new players with a simple achievement system.
12 Feb, 2010, Asylumius wrote in the 4th comment:
Votes: 0
I've played a couple MUDs that do an excellent job of using NPC quests to provide a tutorial of sorts that gives new players a helping hand in getting ready for the long road ahead. The most important factor I think is continuity. A well thought out series of straightforward quests that teach a player basic commands, geography, bare bones equipping, simple tactics, etc. so that when it dumps them out in the end they're capable of being self-sufficient is probably the next best thing to having a veteran player standing over your shoulder.

During my very brief experience with WoW, I did like how the quest system worked at a high level. My only gropes were the repetition and the number of quests I could have open at a time. It got hard to keep track of where I needed to be for my various open quests, and it was kind of boring having 5-6 open "Kill X mobsters of Y type in Z place" quests going at once. The fact that quests were very linear was nice though.

One concept I've seen before and liked was having a familiar or side kick join my character when I created and follow me around. If I took hunger damage because I didn't eat, he would suggest a nearby food shop and provide directions. Maybe it could stop me from attacking an NPC that's twice my level or caution me before entering a zone with aggressive monsters I can't handle, etc. Scripting it would be a bit of a pain, I imagine, but more boring than difficult.
12 Feb, 2010, Kjwah wrote in the 5th comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
Grinding is faster to advance, but given WoW is pretty much entirely equipment based you are kind of forced to do at least some quests to obtain equipment. Personally I'm a fan of more open ended quests, which could be introduced in later stages of the game to at least keep some sense of adventure, instead of being a puppy taking orders.


While that used to be true the only grinding that is faster then questing requires two accounts and specific classes(Mage, paladin, warrior) and hours of instance running over and over.

Asylumius said:
One concept I've seen before and liked was having a familiar or side kick join my character when I created and follow me around. If I took hunger damage because I didn't eat, he would suggest a nearby food shop and provide directions. Maybe it could stop me from attacking an NPC that's twice my level or caution me before entering a zone with aggressive monsters I can't handle, etc. Scripting it would be a bit of a pain, I imagine, but more boring than difficult.


This isn't a bad idea, especially for MUDs that don't have consider command. It's also a lot different then having the same "First ten levels hang around here then go explore. If you get stuck, ask on the newbie channel!" crap on every other MUD out there(Not saying this is the case with every MUD but it's usually the case.
12 Feb, 2010, David Haley wrote in the 6th comment:
Votes: 0
I think that using quests to drive initial progress is a good idea. DAoC (I never played WoW) did this quite a bit, and you eventually completed your class's "epic quest" to get a nifty item. The initial quests were somewhat mundane, though, and similar to the "go X and give Y to Z" or "go kill X number of Ys". I suppose it's obvious enough that story-line is difficult to move forward in a multiplayer game (you couldn't do anything like what Oblivion does where the world actually changes as you progress through the story) but you could probably do at least some stuff.

Combining this with character development, as is being discussed in the other thread, could be a pretty interesting way to give a personalized experience that actually moves forward the story as far as the player/character are concerned, while not creating inconsistencies or funky situations in the general game world.

For example:

Quote
> 'what'
Go find Bob the beggar.

> […find Bob…]

Bob says, "Won't you please help me?"

> 'what'
You could kill Bob and steal his rags (you evil schmuck you) or you could give him a gold coin.

> kill Bob
You mercilessly kill Bob. <CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT HAPPENS, marking your character as a meanie>
OR
> give Bob a coin
You give Bob a coin. <CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT HAPPENS, marking your character as a goodie>





So basically we integrate the 'what to do next' functionality with choices that drive your progression as a character, perhaps even eventually leading to a choice of profession, skills, and so forth.


Quote
> 'what'
You were asked to slay Gork the Ghastly Goblin who has been troubling the village farm. How will you approach this task? Try talking to Merlin the Mage to get a fireball spell, or to Warren the Warrior to learn how to use a sword. Maybe Roger the Rogue can help with less direct methods of violence.


And thus your response to this "quest" will determine your class. (assuming we have a class-based MUD etc.)
13 Feb, 2010, donky wrote in the 7th comment:
Votes: 0
David Haley said:
I think that using quests to drive initial progress is a good idea.


I agree. That's a very good point that has been made in this thread.

But I think there is a lot more potential in the concept of the game tutoring the player, over and above quests. I'll have to revisit this thread at some future time.
13 Feb, 2010, shasarak wrote in the 8th comment:
Votes: 0
David Haley said:
And thus your response to this "quest" will determine your class. (assuming we have a class-based MUD etc.)

Would you make experienced players go through the same process to choose the class of their second and subsequent characters?
13 Feb, 2010, Kayle wrote in the 9th comment:
Votes: 0
shasarak said:
David Haley said:
And thus your response to this "quest" will determine your class. (assuming we have a class-based MUD etc.)

Would you make experienced players go through the same process to choose the class of their second and subsequent characters?


I would, but I would also provide a way for them to get around it. A phrase or something you're given at the very end of the tutorial or whatever the first time and told to write down, to get the fast track for any subsequent characters.
13 Feb, 2010, KaVir wrote in the 10th comment:
Votes: 0
Donky said:
But I think there is a lot more potential in the concept of the game tutoring the player, over and above quests.

Agreed. In fact I do already provide players with a list of basic quests, but those aren't the only activities they can perform, and some of the activities I've got in mind wouldn't really be suited as quests - either because they're too simple (i.e., the first basic steps upon starting out) or too general (eg providing PCs with recommended exp-hunting areas suited to their strength and build).

The same concept could even be applied to muds that don't have quests. It's mostly just an automation of the response given to newbies when they ask "What should I do now?".

shasarak said:
Would you make experienced players go through the same process to choose the class of their second and subsequent characters?

I do, but with the classing process based primarily on player skill, the experienced players can do it much faster than the newbies.
13 Feb, 2010, Tonitrus wrote in the 11th comment:
Votes: 0
Depending on your xp system, you could also just have the tutorial tasks as small xp boosts. Things like "moving around" and stuff don't make much sense to have as real quests, but you could still have them as little tutorial things. Repeat players are likely to use those actions on their own, and wouldn't have to go through the process of doing the tutorials. You could also give a "solution" at the end, so a person who has already done a tutorial can skip to the finish.

Determining character options based off of choices in quests might be interesting, but I'm not sure having character selection options later in the game is really that much help. You might have a better feel for the basics of the mud, but probably still won't have much grasp on what that particular class really means, and I think people would just pick whatever sounds good to them the same way they would have done in character creation. That's what I do, anyway.

Maybe more traditional muds that don't allow much character configuration after creation should have "newbie forgiveness modes" or something. Where you can, in the early stages of a character, swap out your class levels, skills, and whatnot. I'm not sure how well that'd work in practice either, as, in level-based games, the first few levels tend to be pretty irrelevant to how the character will play at higher levels.

Perhaps the first parts of the game's "tutorial mode" could introduce a character to each class's fighting style, exposing them to how those classes operate at "higher levels", and give the player a bit of a preview, where they can choose a character after that. Coupled with a bit of explanation about what it is like to play a character like that might help a bit.

"Being a rogue is about fighting by rote and waiting for an opportunity to strike, attacking early and often only works on inexperienced opponents." I would add "and mobs" to that, but mobs are always inexperienced opponents.

Also, not all the tutorial quests would need to be things like "go to X and do Y", something simple as walking north, east, west, south, and whatever exits you have once each might solve the movement tutorial, regardless of where you were to do it. You could even have a mini achievement system tied in, but that might be hard without having some really lame achievements.
13 Feb, 2010, David Haley wrote in the 12th comment:
Votes: 0
shasarak said:
David Haley said:
And thus your response to this "quest" will determine your class. (assuming we have a class-based MUD etc.)

Would you make experienced players go through the same process to choose the class of their second and subsequent characters?

I think it's difficult if not impossible to answer this question in a vacuum, without knowing exactly what the system being used is. If you assume fully traditional Dikurivative, then I would probably give people a shortcut. If you assume something more skill-based like KaVir's game, and where skills can be swapped out at any time regardless, I might not give them a skip option because the point is rather moot.

In Morrowind, and Oblivion to a greater extent – the Oblivion version is far more interesting – you go through an initial segment where your actions are judged and the game eventually proposes a class (which you can ignore and customize if you wish). This initial segment, again esp. in Oblivion, is really a segment of the game, where stuff is happening, the plot is advancing, you're being introduced to some important concepts (but they're not annoying to go through). It does prompt you to do things in particular (like use the bow to shoot the bucket over the well to learn aiming) but you can tell it to get rid of the tutorial prompts. And if you do that, you might as well be playing the normal game, except that you happen to get this little thing at the end of the segment prompting you to finalize your character.

So, to answer your question, it really depends on what else is going on. But I agree with the general sentiment that you don't want the character creation process to be burdensome to experienced players.
13 Feb, 2010, donky wrote in the 13th comment:
Votes: 0
Tonitrus said:
Perhaps the first parts of the game's "tutorial mode" could introduce a character to each class's fighting style, exposing them to how those classes operate at "higher levels", and give the player a bit of a preview, where they can choose a character after that. Coupled with a bit of explanation about what it is like to play a character like that might help a bit.

I definitely think what you describe is useful information to have, should you have to choose a class, but I am leaning towards it being an indulgence on the part of the developer at the players expense. On one hand players have to sit while this sideshow goes on. And on the other, they may not even have the context to understand it, or the patience to care at that point.

Tonitrus said:
"Being a rogue is about fighting by rote and waiting for an opportunity to strike, attacking early and often only works on inexperienced opponents." I would add "and mobs" to that, but mobs are always inexperienced opponents.

Also, not all the tutorial quests would need to be things like "go to X and do Y", something simple as walking north, east, west, south, and whatever exits you have once each might solve the movement tutorial, regardless of where you were to do it. You could even have a mini achievement system tied in, but that might be hard without having some really lame achievements.

What you describe sounds more like "having tutorials" than "the game tutoring the player."

Where the game is tutoring the player, it might simply hint that they could move in a direction and how. Perhaps when they type "what" as Kavir suggests, or perhaps by "hint spamming" as Midkemia puts to good use. And I would be adverse to having tutoring give any sort of direct rewards for following hints. If the tutoring is there to actually facilitate the players enjoyment of the game, having its help will be reward in and of itself. Rewards and achievements can naturally come from doing things that merit rewards and achievements, whether the tutoring helped the player get there or not.

And this does not penalise those who would turn the tutoring off or just refrain from using it. The self-motivated types. They should have the opportunity for the same quests, rewards and achievements that those being tutored do. Otherwise, you would be making them play with tutoring when it is something they would not choose to do through lack of enjoyment.
13 Feb, 2010, Tonitrus wrote in the 14th comment:
Votes: 0
@donkey: I agree with everything you just said, so I'm not going to quote.

Maybe choosing a class could have a "class quest" that could contain a certain amount of base information and make available other information without requiring the player to go through that information? I.e., going to the Thieves Guild to learn to become a thief could have a mini-quest, while also having rooms you could go into to learn about what being a thief entails. Then people who aren't certain about what class they want will have that information available, while others who don't care can simply skip it.

Don't have anything else to add to tutoring, though, except that a similar approach could be adopted for certain other character creation options.
14 Feb, 2010, Runter wrote in the 15th comment:
Votes: 0
Only thing I would like to add is there's no reason to let them skip tutorial quests if done correctly.

Many games incorporate tutorial quests and a tutorial overlay independently. That is to say, even if you wanted to turn off the tutorial guidance you would still have the quests available to you. There's no reason the quests need to be OOC. Indeed, the tutorial quests could be just as interesting as any other quest in your game even for experienced players. This rings especially true if the quests are unique per creation choice.
23 Feb, 2010, KaVir wrote in the 16th comment:
Votes: 0
I decided to have a go at implementing a 'what' command, and the feedback so far is fairly positive - but it's not quite as straightfoward as I'd hoped, and it looks like it'll require more work than I'd initially thought.

The early phase of the game was pretty easy to cover, as it's already fairly linear and broken up into clear objectives. All I really needed to do here was push the player towards their next objective and give them some suggestions for how to overcome it. I threw in a few other words of wisdom along the way, but tried to keep a clear goal for each step.

When it came to classing, I couldn't decide how best to handle it, so I ended up just pointing them in the direction of the classing help file. I'm not overly happy with that solution, but the 'what' command doesn't know which class they want, so it doesn't know which direction to point them in. I'm wondering if perhaps the command should accept context-sensitive arguments, but I don't want to make it too complex.

After classing I end up with another problem - too many things to do. I've tried grouping together similar activities and only presenting one of each category, but that can sometimes result in very little advice. I think I may need some sort of priority weighing for different sections of advice, although this would still suffer from another problem - advice that the player isn't quite ready to follow, perhaps because it's still a bit too tough, or because it covers an aspect of the game that they're not yet confident with. Such advice could block other advice that the player might be more interested in.

Another problem I've run into is suggestions for configurable options. It often makes sense for the player to activate certain options, so it'd be nice to mention them - but sometimes the player may not want to set a particular option, and then it's just going to be spam every time they type 'what'. The suggestions could perhaps be shown only the first few times, but I'm not very keen on vanishing advice, as the player might just have overlooked it and/or meant to change it later. So far I only limit this to the pre-classing phase; if the player switches off hints, the 'what' command warns them that they're missing out on context-sensitive suggestions.

Despite my concerns, I still think it's worth adding.
23 Feb, 2010, Orrin wrote in the 17th comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
The suggestions could perhaps be shown only the first few times, but I'm not very keen on vanishing advice, as the player might just have overlooked it and/or meant to change it later.

One way to handle this would be to have the player able to enter a command to dismiss a particular hint so that it's not shown again.
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