ShadowsDawn
Apprentice
Group: Members
Posts: 43
Joined: Jun 30, 2008
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#31 id:11952 Posted Sep 11, 2008, 1:27 pm
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DavidHaley said:I agree that it's important to realize that not everybody will like everything -- that is almost a no-brainer. What surprises me is that people willfully perpetuate this attitude when trying to break the mold themselves. It seems that if you're trying to convince people to be open-minded toward your game, it's nice to try to extend that same courtesy (even if you know that not everyone will).
I actually look for games that are different from my usual. I like finding new and inventive things in a game. Maybe they are rehashed from another game, but as long as it is modified to fit their game, then it is new and refreshing. I don't like playing only games that have the same features in my 'home' game.. mainly because..that's boring. if I wanted those features, I'll just go play my 'home' game and not look for something new.
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Hades_Kane
Wizard
Group: Moderators
Posts: 817
Joined: May 31, 2006
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#32 id:11963 Posted Sep 11, 2008, 4:19 pm
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DavidHaley said:I agree that it's important to realize that not everybody will like everything -- that is almost a no-brainer. What surprises me is that people willfully perpetuate this attitude when trying to break the mold themselves. It seems that if you're trying to convince people to be open-minded toward your game, it's nice to try to extend that same courtesy (even if you know that not everyone will).
It would be nice. But since I'm never really going to dedicate a significant amount of time to any game but my own, it's mostly a non-issue for me. Regardless, I do think its important for everyone to understand this :p
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......................... -Diablos of End of Time, eotmud.com:4000, Final Fantasy themed -- Seeking Builders! For more info visit: http://www.eotmud.com/
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Sandi
Wizard
Group: Members
Posts: 628
Joined: Jun 17, 2006
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#33 id:11991 Posted Sep 12, 2008, 7:51 am
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David, hopefully we're not "perpetrating an attitude", just honestly admitting our human nature among friends. 
I do think it drives home the difficulty of reaching out to new players when our own behaviours/values/desires differ from the norm. At this point, it's been a while since most of us were "just players". In the (long) process of developing a (good) game, it's easy to lose sight of how things look to a newbie who doesn't know how things work.
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......................... The Witch of Tir na nOg
www.tnnmud.com
tnnmud.com 6789
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Sandi
Wizard
Group: Members
Posts: 628
Joined: Jun 17, 2006
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#34 id:11992 Posted Sep 12, 2008, 9:00 am
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Here's something I drew while thinking about this topic:
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kill mob -> XP -> level -> EQ + skills -> kill bigger mob
DeepMUD:
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kill mob -> XP -|
-> bonus -> skills -> kill bigger mob
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-> level -> . . . win game
-> XP -|
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kill mob ->
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-> sell for gold -> have too much gold (this needs work!)
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DeepMUD, of course, is my current game. We've put Creation in-game, so you choose a Race in the very beginning, then later a Class, and you add skills with 'gain', so the original "Creation Points" become "Practices", and thus you're basically buying your skills with XP. The 'proposed' would work if you had a balanced economy.
And before KaVir points it out, if you want to have crafting, just replace "kiil mob" with "make foo" in the above.
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......................... The Witch of Tir na nOg
www.tnnmud.com
tnnmud.com 6789
Last edited Sep 12, 2008, 9:06 am by Sandi
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David Haley
Wizard
Group: Members
Posts: 6,913
Joined: Jun 30, 2007
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#35 id:11995 Posted Sep 12, 2008, 10:01 am
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Sandi said:David, hopefully we're not "perpetrating an attitude", just honestly admitting our human nature among friends.
Well, right.  What I meant is that if one realizes that one is doing something contrary to one's other principles, one should work out if those other principles need adjusting, or if the action needs adjusting, etc. So, if I tell you that I hate color in other people's MUDs and disconnect if I see any whatsoever, but then say how valuable I think color is in my own, I should at least try to give other people a chance to see if they're using it like I am. (or something like that -- I think you see what I mean)
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quixadhal
Wizard
Group: Members
Posts: 1,473
Joined: Oct 17, 2007
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#36 id:12005 Posted Sep 12, 2008, 7:40 pm
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Sandi said:Here's something I drew while thinking about this topic:
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Stock:
kill mob -> XP -> level -> EQ + skills -> kill bigger mob
DeepMUD:
-> level -> EQ -> kill bigger mob
kill mob -> XP -|
-> bonus -> skills -> kill bigger mob
Proposed:
-> level -> . . . win game
-> XP -|
| -> bonus -> skills -> kill bigger mob
kill mob ->
| -> wear for AC -> kill bigger mob
-> EQ -|
-> sell for gold -> have too much gold (this needs work!)
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DeepMUD, of course, is my current game. We've put Creation in-game, so you choose a Race in the very beginning, then later a Class, and you add skills with 'gain', so the original "Creation Points" become "Practices", and thus you're basically buying your skills with XP. The 'proposed' would work if you had a balanced economy.
And before KaVir points it out, if you want to have crafting, just replace "kiil mob" with "make foo" in the above.
Hmmmmm... *ponders a moment*
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Imagined:
+-- drive mobs to local extinction, force them to relocate
| allowing others to take their place in the local ecology
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+-- RESULTS --+-- improvements (or penalties) to faction standings
| based on what you killed
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| +-- skill improvements or "levels", you choose how to spend it
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military --+-- XP --+-- access to quests or special loot by spending XP as "fame"
| | chaper repairs/hirelings
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| +-- access to in-game guilds/societies to learn specialized skills
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| +-- sell for gold
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+-- LOOT --+-- better gear, easier killing
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+-- break down into componants, for crafting
+-- better merchant prices, cheaper training
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dipolomacy --+-- WIN --+-- improvements to standings with target faction
social | | possibly resulting in loss of agression
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| +-- access to quests/items otherwise unavailable, diplomatic
| fame is seperate from military fame
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+-- LOSE --+-- penalties to standtings with target faction
| possibly resulting in war
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+-- XP --+-- win or lose, you gain XP, giving you better diplomacy skills
crafting --+-- XP --+-- allows access to new recipies, higher tiered harvestables
harvesting |
+-- PRODUCTS --+-- useful or sellable goods
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| +-- fame, granting access to crafting societies, special recipies
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| +-- improved faction with customers if commissioned crafting
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+-- FAILURES --+-- components broken down further, or lost
research --+-- XP --+-- improved skills, speeding research, improving accuracy
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+-- LOOT --+-- rare items discovered (from seeminly mundane "vendor trash")
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| +-- hints towards ancient treasures/kingdoms (locations of places)
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+-- RESULTS --+-- improved spells/abilities, access to variations
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+-- reduced cost (material/mana/etc) to use particular spells/abilities
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+-- yes, fame... as above, but seperate.
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The key here is, don't make EVERYTHING in the game centered around killing mobs. Sure, it's fun, and most of your players will do that more than anything else... but we're trying to get outside of the box here. How about some non-combat oriented ways to advance or improve your character?
My earlier idea of socializing and gaining fame works ok if you have a large enough game with a big enough world. Since you only got XP for the first of anything you managed to have a dialog with, you have to hot-foot it all over the world to get beyond the first few "levels".
Likewise for things like research, you might always be doing research (as a background skill), but some actions will give you a boost of XP (such as, perhaps, examining an ancient altar, or discovering a location for the first time).
Another, seperate, idea here...
If you REALLY want a challenge... try to work out a semi-closed economy. That is, one where raw materials are only added to the world as the player population rises, so you never "junk" things, if you run out of iron... you have to find new iron deposits, or start recycling your old newbie swords to forge better weapons.
Note that the mobs have to obey this too. If your goblin tribe starts out with copper scimitars, and players kill and loot them, surviving goblins in the area that breed to replace the dead won't have copper scimitars to give them. Of course, they might call in a neighboring tribe with iron scimitars, but eventually you have to hit a limit where players need to find new areas to exploit, or recycle old gear, or live with wielding bone knives and leather shields.
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tphegley
Sorcerer
Group: Moderators
Posts: 363
Joined: Aug 13, 2007
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#38 id:12010 Posted Sep 12, 2008, 11:46 pm
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quixadhal said:
Hmmmmm... *ponders a moment*
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Imagined:
+-- drive mobs to local extinction, force them to relocate
| allowing others to take their place in the local ecology
|
+-- RESULTS --+-- improvements (or penalties) to faction standings
| based on what you killed
|
| +-- skill improvements or "levels", you choose how to spend it
| |
military --+-- XP --+-- access to quests or special loot by spending XP as "fame"
| | chaper repairs/hirelings
| |
| +-- access to in-game guilds/societies to learn specialized skills
|
| +-- sell for gold
| |
+-- LOOT --+-- better gear, easier killing
|
+-- break down into componants, for crafting
+-- better merchant prices, cheaper training
|
dipolomacy --+-- WIN --+-- improvements to standings with target faction
social | | possibly resulting in loss of agression
| |
| +-- access to quests/items otherwise unavailable, diplomatic
| fame is seperate from military fame
|
+-- LOSE --+-- penalties to standtings with target faction
| possibly resulting in war
|
+-- XP --+-- win or lose, you gain XP, giving you better diplomacy skills
crafting --+-- XP --+-- allows access to new recipies, higher tiered harvestables
harvesting |
+-- PRODUCTS --+-- useful or sellable goods
| |
| +-- fame, granting access to crafting societies, special recipies
| |
| +-- improved faction with customers if commissioned crafting
|
+-- FAILURES --+-- components broken down further, or lost
research --+-- XP --+-- improved skills, speeding research, improving accuracy
|
+-- LOOT --+-- rare items discovered (from seeminly mundane "vendor trash")
| |
| +-- hints towards ancient treasures/kingdoms (locations of places)
|
+-- RESULTS --+-- improved spells/abilities, access to variations
|
+-- reduced cost (material/mana/etc) to use particular spells/abilities
|
+-- yes, fame... as above, but seperate.
|
The key here is, don't make EVERYTHING in the game centered around killing mobs. Sure, it's fun, and most of your players will do that more than anything else... but we're trying to get outside of the box here. How about some non-combat oriented ways to advance or improve your character?
My earlier idea of socializing and gaining fame works ok if you have a large enough game with a big enough world. Since you only got XP for the first of anything you managed to have a dialog with, you have to hot-foot it all over the world to get beyond the first few "levels".
Likewise for things like research, you might always be doing research (as a background skill), but some actions will give you a boost of XP (such as, perhaps, examining an ancient altar, or discovering a location for the first time).
Another, seperate, idea here...
If you REALLY want a challenge... try to work out a semi-closed economy. That is, one where raw materials are only added to the world as the player population rises, so you never "junk" things, if you run out of iron... you have to find new iron deposits, or start recycling your old newbie swords to forge better weapons.
Note that the mobs have to obey this too. If your goblin tribe starts out with copper scimitars, and players kill and loot them, surviving goblins in the area that breed to replace the dead won't have copper scimitars to give them. Of course, they might call in a neighboring tribe with iron scimitars, but eventually you have to hit a limit where players need to find new areas to exploit, or recycle old gear, or live with wielding bone knives and leather shields.
This is something that I have been thinking about recently as well. An entire economy run by players...
I've been envisioning a mud that just doesn't have leveling, but able to do other things, like have carpenters to 'build' rooms for people who can pay for a house. Woodworkers to get the wood for the carpenters. Engineers to 'design' the house, blacksmiths to create the toosl needed for the house and so on
have a completely player run economy
merchants could teach mobs how to become vendors and then loan them out to people who want to sell items like crafters and such
diplomacy
kings
kingdoms
wars
alliances
trades
I don't have time now but I can expand on this later.
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......................... Admin of Legends of Old
Currently still in testing and design stage.
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Chris Bailey
Wizard
Group: Members
Posts: 602
Joined: Sep 13, 2008
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#39 id:12020 Posted Sep 13, 2008, 2:45 am
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I have several ideas that I consider to be somewhat unique to the mudding community and I am currently working on them in one way or another. My current primary project is planned to behave in the following manner.
Players spend most of their time in a "lobby" like area, unless they decide to embark on an "adventure". An adventure is a well designed quest with it's own unique plot,npcs,locales and treasure. My idea is that the player will be presented with a list of "adventures" to go on along with a brief synopsis of the story and the goal. Adventures will be available to the players based on their class/race/level or possible faction involvement so that all players will not be able to participate in all adventures. (This will hopefully inspire players to try out several different class and race combinations). Each adventure will have several ways for a player to be victorious that result in differing rewards. Perhaps the adventure will start off with the player visiting a small hamlet on the coast that is being attacked by orcs. The player might decide to kill the orcs in the village to end the assault, maybe the player will travel to the orcish camp nearby to kill the leader and disband the tribe. Maybe the player IS an orc and decides to help them loot and plunder the village. Or maybe the character cannot fight at all and decides to visit the Orcish camp and talk them out of/bribe them out of attacking.
It might seem a little strange or boring but I think it would be an interesting take on typical mudding. It is designed more like a "module" from dungeons and dragons than anything else. I haven't tried to implement multi-player quests but the system is still in it's infancy. Rewards wouldn't be based on combat at all. While you could of course engage in combat, it is only one solution (And possibly not a solution at all) to the problem at hand. Solving the adventure by any means will result in some sort of reward, some better than others. Rewards range from various equipment and experience points to increased (or decreased) relations with related factions. My only real concern with the system is the amount of staff created content required...Currently it requires manually typed YAML files, hehe!
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.........................
If what Proust says is true, that happiness is the absence of fever, then I will never know happiness. For I am possessed by a fever for knowledge, experience, and creation.
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Vladaar
Conjurer
Group: Members
Posts: 193
Joined: May 17, 2006
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#40 id:12022 Posted Sep 13, 2008, 3:21 am
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Well you can have an AWESOME political, house, religious, clan system in a game, but if you don't have
players to use it, it will sit and rot. I would someday like to expand to have a house system and political
system in my game, but right now don't have the player base for it. I am using clans with npc leaders
that induct/outcast give gear to players. I really just got tired of players wanting clans, taking clan
leadership position then disappearing, then new players not wanting an old clan but their own clan, and
constantly having to make new clans. However now, I have recently added two player positions
within the clans, but kept the npc leaders. Giving the player positions a few commands so they can
interact more and roleplay within the clans with other players.
Heh, just realized I maybe off topic quite abit. Sorry, but what I am getting it, is breaking the Mold is great,
but if you dont have a ready made player base, or a great way of attracting players, it is for naught.
I am 100% for something like what Fury suggested on mudconnect that we need a major mud list that
will list muds by stages, ( developmental, beta, alpha, open, etc. ) It would filter out some of the
hundreds of muds out there that clutter the mudlists that are still in developmental stage. Yah I know
it would be an incredible amount of work, and no one is willing to do it.
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Last edited Sep 13, 2008, 3:32 am by Vladaar
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quixadhal
Wizard
Group: Members
Posts: 1,473
Joined: Oct 17, 2007
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#41 id:12031 Posted Sep 13, 2008, 4:42 am
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DavidHaley said:What happens to a (semi-)closed economy when one or more people sit around hoarding stuff, if anything because they don't care to junk it? Will mobs and newbies forever be unable to have swords? Like you say, this is a big challenge...
To some degree, players attempting to hoard will be self-defeating, simply because if an area becomes depleted, people and mobs will move on to greener pastures. I suggest things being semi-closed, because you would want things to gradually replenish themselves unless you have an admin staff that is creating new content at an incredible pace.
Interestingly, I think if you had four newbie villages to start from, and one of them gets resource depleted due to mob extinction and player hoarding, most new folk will get warned to create in one of the other villages, but those who like a challenge may seek out the leaner areas.
I would probably start trying to implement something like this by setting some replenishment rates for various materials, and then "stock" the area with a certain amount (both in refined goods and raw mats). If the stock gets depleted, it recovers at the slow rate to simulate residents mining ore, plants slowly regrowing, etc. On the OTHER side, if the stock rises to a certain point, replenishment stops. Too much ore means the miners won't bother pulling any more up, the harvesters will stop planting, etc. Thus, you prevent just having infinite amounts of materials continue to accure.
I'd probably also keep both global rates/stats AND regional ones. There should be an overall cap in the world, but also local caps and replenish rates. That way, you can have one super-rich region producing so much that other regions around it stop producing, even though they're depleted. THAT makes for regional trading, which is always a good thing for a player economy. :)
But yes, it's not something that can be figured out and designed in a few weeks. I do think it would be worthwhile though, and if anyone gets a stable system working with a couple hundred players, the MMO folks might be at their doors with checkbooks. Inflation of the economy is the biggest problem of faucet/drain economies, and all the graphical MMO's would love a way out I suispect.
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quixadhal
Wizard
Group: Members
Posts: 1,473
Joined: Oct 17, 2007
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#42 id:12032 Posted Sep 13, 2008, 4:50 am
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Vladaar said:Well you can have an AWESOME political, house, religious, clan system in a game, but if you don't have
players to use it, it will sit and rot. I would someday like to expand to have a house system and political
system in my game, but right now don't have the player base for it. I am using clans with npc leaders
that induct/outcast give gear to players.
Actually, you provided your own answer. :)
Build a complex, player driven political system, but put NPC's into all the positions as seeds. As players do whatever they need to do to move up in the political ranks, they will gradually start to displace the NPC's and take over their functions, gaining their abilities as they do so.
I realize many people can't stand the idea of doing work when nobody seems to care, but in many cases, you can't ask people to play a game and totally change it under their noses. If you start up a standard diku and start adding "weird" new features, your playerbase will wander off since they WANTED a stock diku. OTOH, if you code all the new ideas, people will wander by and poke their noses in to see what's up. A few will stay and bring friends. If they see you're actively adding new content, they'll talk about it and get more people.
It all depends on your reasons for running a mud. If players are the most important thing, you'll probably let ideas take a back seat and focus on making stuff to keep the players happy. If ideas are more important, you'll be lean on players until you've convinced enough of them to stick with it, through your continued attention and actions.
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