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Vlaadar on Colaboration, forked., For clarity.
Cratylus
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#16 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 9:18 am
I'm a big fan of putting my money where my mouth is.
I invited folks to talk about where they think things
should go. I'm going to go ahead and risk a little
ridicule of my own by sharing my thoughts on this.

One of the most powerful tools in my project to
re-invigorate the LP community has been intermud.
Though the "old" i3 had a pretty bad reputation, the
tool itself was not at fault, but rather its
indifferent application.

With patience, and good humor, and good faith, Intermud-3
has become a kind of social hub that has an energy
of its own...independent of any one person's ministrations.
New muds get support, the weak are defended, and a
sense of community and warm camaraderie (even if on some
channels it looks like locker room ribaldry) has
developed that makes me feel very, very optimistic
about the chances of "a mud community" and maybe even
"The Mud Community".

This is one of the reasons I've worked so intensely
on supporting IMC2 on the codebase I develop. Even if
IMC2 isn't "my turf", I still want folks to have the
ability to spread out beyond the traditional bounds that
have divided communities. I want *all* intermud networks
to expand, intersect...maybe even interoperate?

There are lots of fears about intermud. Will my players
get stolen? will people be mean to me? Etc. That's fine,
it's natural to be wary of change.

My argument is that we are a community, and it is the
facilitation of communication we should be seeking, to
truly and openly exchange ideas, support each other,
and...you never know....maybe even have a little fun.

I propose that we consider a formally unified intermud.
I believe fragmentation and isolation are not to our
advantage, and this is one way to help strengthen
the community as a whole and improve the chances of
success for our individual projects.

-Crat
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David Haley
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#17 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 10:27 am
You know, to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure that intermud is appropriate on a player-active MUD. If I'm the head dude, I would want my players to playing the game and focusing on local community, and I would want my staff to be doing their jobs. I don't really need a whole new world at the gates. I realize this sounds terribly anti-social, but it's something I've been thinking about and I'm not really sure what the right answer is.

That said, it is a great thing for development or early MUDs, and I fully support the idea of unification to whatever extent possible. The procedures and administration just need to be made very clear early on.
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Cratylus
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#18 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 10:37 am
DH wrote:
Quote:
You know, to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure that intermud is appropriate on a player-active MUD.


Lots of people feel that way...I suspect it just comes
down to personal preference. Even if you limit intermud
access to devs or admins...perhaps you just don't care for it.

For a few folks though, their avoidance of intermud
is due to some out of date information. A while back
I put together a FAQ entry to deal with some
of the common objections folks have to it:

http://dead-souls.net/ds-admin-faq.html#137

DH wrote:
Quote:
I fully support the idea of unification to whatever extent possible.


Yeah...I think the question of "do I want intermud?" is
indeed separate from "is it good to unify the networks?".

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Samson
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#19 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 4:59 pm
I think a lot of folks on IMC are there because they don't like the atmosphere present on I3, in any of its forms. You've described at least part of why: "even if on some
channels it looks like locker room ribaldry". The problem is, this particular issue is on "the channel". The main one most people would use by default. Sort of the ichat of the I3 world.

I remember very clearly that I was not happy with the atmosphere on the old gjs network. Granted, it no longer exists (or does it?) but most of those people have migrated to the new one and brought their same attitude with them. It's why even though several Dikus had the I3 code installed they ended up on the Diku only channels where we didn't tolerate that sort of thing. It never got better and eventually when it began bleeding over to our channels I simply dropped support for the client and disconnected from the network.

I've always found IMC to be a much more relaxed and friendly environment and personally would not want to see any of what still goes on on igossip bleeding over on to ichat. I think a lot of other folks might agree with me on this and is why we've chosen to be where we are. Even if some of us are no longer using it as much, due in part to some of the issues I just mentioned. I've already had some private discussions with some people who have expressed a desire to form a new network that's not a part of all that. I hesitate to consider it though because it would lead to a pretty big split in what's left of the community.

On a technical level I've always wanted to see if making I3 interoperable with IMC at the server level would even be possible. The only thing that ever held me back though was the social fallout of doing so when the natural barriers come down. But they're largely gone now anyway so the technical end of it is probably worth exploring now. It would more or less be a client-invisible thing. Clients would keep using whatever protocol they already have. Only the servers would need to change to accommodate it.
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Cratylus
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#20 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 5:10 pm
Samson wrote:
Quote:
but most of those people have migrated to the new one and brought their same attitude with them.


Welllll....I think I addressed that in my post, so I'll
just let it speak for itself.

Samson wrote:
Quote:
On a technical level I've always wanted to see if making I3 interoperable with IMC at the server level would even be possible. The only thing that ever held me back though was the social fallout of doing so when the natural barriers come down. But they're largely gone now anyway so the technical end of it is probably worth exploring now. It would more or less be a client-invisible thing. Clients would keep using whatever protocol they already have. Only the servers would need to change to accommodate it.


Yep, I've got a prototype in pre-alpha testing. The basic
functionality is not rocket science to translate and I've
got mudlists, channels, and tells working pretty ok.

It's completely doable, and wouldn't require much to
activate once I'm done with my translation code. It's
not at all a question of technical feasibility, but whether
we have the will to work it out socially.

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Samson
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#21 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 5:20 pm
Cratylus said:
Samson wrote:
Quote:
but most of those people have migrated to the new one and brought their same attitude with them.


Welllll....I think I addressed that in my post, so I'll
just let it speak for itself.


I get what you're saying, but I think you're used to it after having been around them for years. Perhaps even desensitized to it. But I've read over some of the logs available of what goes on there and really, it's just not the kind of social environment I prefer, and I think quite a few IMC participants would agree with me. If that sort of thing took a real hold on IMC I honestly think it could lead to a network fork which would only continue to fragment things.



Cratylus said:
Yep, I've got a prototype in pre-alpha testing. The basic
functionality is not rocket science to translate and I've
got mudlists, channels, and tells working pretty ok.

It's completely doable, and wouldn't require much to
activate once I'm done with my translation code. It's
not at all a question of technical feasibility, but whether
we have the will to work it out socially.


I always figured it would be relatively easy. Probably no more difficult than the old I3 bridge code I used to have that handled packet translation through a client connected to both independent networks. The servers would just need to settle on what they'd use internally to keep track of it all. I'm not sure what the state of I3 router interoperation is these days, but the IMC2 setup is more than capable of handling the internal routing right now.
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Cratylus
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#22 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 5:44 pm
Samson wrote:
Quote:
I get what you're saying, but I think you're used to it after having been around them for years. Perhaps even desensitized to it.


Ok. Check it out. My big thing that I do is maintain
a codebase, and I am fanatically devoted to it. And
I am a fanatical defender of new adopters.

I do not enable "rude" channels for them. I police
the default "protected" channels ruthlessly. Ask
anyone on there. I'm a right pain in the ass about it.

It is important to me not to scare them away. Just
as it would be important to me not to terrify IMC2
people by bridging intergossip to ichat, for example.

There are channels for people who prefer not to hold
their tongues. Newcomers are *discouraged* from joining
those channels, and I would similarly discourage IMC2
people from tuning into intergossip.

Samson wrote:
Quote:
But I've read over some of the logs available of what goes on there and really, it's just not the kind of social environment I prefer, and I think quite a few IMC participants would agree with me.


The funny thing is that ichat is actually more crude
and less acceptable than the default Dead Souls channels.
The swearing and graphic discussions there have given
me pause, and I've been considering making it opt-in,
rather than default, for the DS IMC2 client.

Samson wrote:
Quote:
If that sort of thing took a real hold on IMC I honestly think it could lead to a network fork which would only continue to fragment things.


Well, that really depends on the channel, as I've said.
If you want to act like i3 == intergossip, then you could
indeed badmouth it all day. But that's just not so.

There's a channel where people can speak their minds. It's opt-in,
I don't encourage people to use it, and I agree it's gross.

So what?

Here's the log for dchat, the friendly i3 channel
that is pg-13 and intended for random chat about whatever:

http://ebspso.dnsalias.org/i3logs/index.php?chan=dchat#bottom

I invite folks to read it and judge for themselves. I
consider dchat to be the primary "chat" channel for normal people.

If you're ok with crude language and occasional rude
behavior, you can wade into the piranha pit that is
intergossip, whose log you can see here:

http://ebspso.dnsalias.org/i3logs/index.php?chan=imud_gossip#bottom

You don't have to subscribe to either, and just as
the nastiness of intergossip is not permitted to spill
onto dchat, neither would it be allowed to find its way
onto ichat in a unified network.

Saying the i3 network is bad because some people use
an opt-in channel in ways you don't like is like
saying cable is bad because you can subscribe to pron.

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Samson
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#23 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 6:47 pm
Cratylus said:
Samson wrote:
Quote:
But I've read over some of the logs available of what goes on there and really, it's just not the kind of social environment I prefer, and I think quite a few IMC participants would agree with me.


The funny thing is that ichat is actually more crude
and less acceptable than the default Dead Souls channels.
The swearing and graphic discussions there have given
me pause, and I've been considering making it opt-in,
rather than default, for the DS IMC2 client.


I guess that tells you how little I'm paying attention to IMC these days since I hadn't really seen it becoming crude, though in all honesty I had noticed the general attitude on the channel taking a turn in a less mature direction than I was used to seeing. I suppose it's just continued along that line or something then which explains why other people I know have been using it less and less, to the point of almost not being there anymore themselves.
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Vladaar
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#24 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 8:12 pm
Yah at times the discussions due become vulgar, well at least every night.  I remember talk a month or two ago about people trying not to use so much profanity and vulgar talk on the channels for IMC, but it clearly hasn't improved at all.  However, I do agree with DH that though IMC is helpful for those starting out, once you start to get a player base, you don't want your players and STAFF distracted by outside things.  You want them concentrating on your mud. 

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Last edited Aug 28, 2008, 8:19 pm by Vladaar
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#25 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 8:34 pm
Why do you capitalize all of Staff like it's an acronym? I'm curious.

As far as conversations getting crude, I'd not noticed, but I haven't really been paying attention to the channels all that much. But I have seen an escalation in the amount of people that I had assumed were from the LP or i3 communities, and some of them do seem to have a rather crude mouth on them. I personally have been trying to watch my language lately, as per Conner's request in the thread for rules/guidelines. Guess I'm going to have to keep a closer eye on things from now on if it's appearing crude.

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#26 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 8:38 pm
Kayle said:

But I have seen an escalation in the amount of people that I had assumed were from the LP or i3 communities, and some of them do seem to have a rather crude mouth on them.


I have not seen LP people violate rules of decorum. And not that
many have been participating. If I am mistaken, please let me know
who and when. I will talk to them.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net

PS I think that I swore once when the trivia bot cheated me
out of a point, actually. Won't happen again.

Last edited Aug 28, 2008, 8:40 pm by Cratylus
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Kayle
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#27 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 8:44 pm
I honestly don't mind swearing. But it was voiced that people on the network don't like excessive swearing. ANd since the game channel defaults to mortal perms on those, and I can agree that swearing is probably not something that can be seen by general player populace, especially since people seem to be trying to cater to the younger crowds lately.

I wasn't saying that the LP crowd had been breaking rules of decorum, I was merely stating that I had seen a lot more of them on lately. I probably should have built my paragraph better. :P
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#28 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 8:49 pm
Kayle said:
I wasn't saying that the LP crowd had been breaking rules of decorum, I was merely stating that I had seen a lot more of them on lately. I probably should have built my paragraph better. :P


Thank you for clarifying. Sorry if I seem twitchy on the subject. I'd like
to be sure we at least agree on facts, if not interpretations of them.

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Vladaar
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#29 Posted Aug 28, 2008, 9:39 pm
Kayle said:
Why do you capitalize all of Staff like it's an acronym? I'm curious.



Well its not a good explanation, but it comes from the old days of seeing bouncers in bars with STAFF on
their shirt backs.  Its been a hard habit for me to break, to write it with only the S capitalized. 
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Last edited Aug 28, 2008, 9:40 pm by Vladaar
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#30 Posted Aug 29, 2008, 12:37 am
That's an amusing anecdote. And makes total sense. XD
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