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Ello, Im new
Grif05
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#1 id:60693 Posted Feb 14, 2012, 12:20 am

Having been faithful to a mud for the past four years, and watched its decline into the muddle it is now, Ive decided to attempt to learn a bit about the flip side of the game. Ive started the basics of building forever ago, and unfortunately thats as far as Ive gotten. I have a desire to run my own but realistically dont think I have the means considering I cant build or code  (yet).

JohnnyStarr
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#2 id:60695 Posted Feb 14, 2012, 6:01 am

Is this a discussion?  If so, feel free to ask questions.
Believe it or not, someone out there may have the same questions you do.  If for instance, you
are interested in building, you could ask for pointers on how to go about doing that.  If you aren't
sure what kind of MUD to build for, you could ask that.  If you are wanting to learn C, you can ask
about that.  :biggrin:
.........................
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Grif05
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#3 id:60699 Posted Feb 14, 2012, 1:12 pm

Can I apply for all 3 at the same time :p Ive got the smaugfuss code base, but Id rather start simple and go with building in that codebase first. I have a concept for my mud that Ive thought through and pitched to a few fellow mudders, and with the exception of one who claims that "several muds of its kind already exist" (despite me searching), most others seem interested in my idea.
I was being taught how to build and have the basics of rooms down before the Builders Academy for the mud Im in stopped getting turned on. As for coding, Ive been looking for any books on the matter and have decided that itd be better to learn C online if possible.

Runter
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#4 id:60700 Posted Feb 14, 2012, 1:26 pm

Tell us your top secret idea so we can steal it.

Lyanic
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#5 id:60701 Posted Feb 14, 2012, 2:08 pm

Something about that username seems familiar...
.........................
- Lyanic, Creator/Designer/Administrator
The 7th Plane (7thplane.net 8888)

Last edited Feb 14, 2012, 2:08 pm by Lyanic
Grif05
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#6 id:60702 Posted Feb 14, 2012, 2:49 pm

Im on your mud Lyanic :D

Quarlash
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#7 id:60704 Posted Feb 14, 2012, 8:52 pm

Lyanic said:
Something about that username seems familiar...


It reminds me.. of a guy named Grif04.. hmm. Come to think of it.. He reminded me of Grif02 but not Grif03..  :wink:
.........................
Continual Growth through Education and Breaking Things ... In Production. :)

Grif05
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#8 id:60705 Posted Feb 14, 2012, 10:44 pm

Lol the 05 has nothing to do with my iteration. Its just a way to get a unique name for most of my online stuff.

Runter
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#9 id:60706 Posted Feb 15, 2012, 4:24 am

They're just trolling you..but seriously, tell us your idea for a game so we can rip it off.

Grif05
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#10 id:60710 Posted Feb 15, 2012, 8:26 am

So after talking to a new friend last night, again Im told theres already a mud out there with my general concept. My thought was to take popular video game, anime, tv show, watever inspiration we wanted, and create a universe full of worlds, each world a different setting. It would have a race/class system similar to the Final Fantasy Tactics advanced system, where you can change your class freely (for the most part), and some classes are race restricted. For instance, a friend wanted to make a Mushroom kingdom world, the race would be the little mushroom head people, and the class would have an ability to obtain more gold (i think it was).

KaVir
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#11 id:60711 Posted Feb 15, 2012, 9:32 am

Your friend sounds like a fun guy.
.........................
KaVir at God Wars II: godwars2.org 3000  Roomless world.  Manual combat.  Endless possibilities.

Quarlash
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#12 id:60712 Posted Feb 15, 2012, 11:48 am

Grif05 said:
So after talking to a new friend last night, again Im told theres already a mud out there with my general concept. My thought was to take popular video game, anime, tv show, watever inspiration we wanted, and create a universe full of worlds, each world a different setting. It would have a race/class system similar to the Final Fantasy Tactics advanced system, where you can change your class freely (for the most part), and some classes are race restricted. For instance, a friend wanted to make a Mushroom kingdom world, the race would be the little mushroom head people, and the class would have an ability to obtain more gold (i think it was).


It's not a concept I've seen before, although each part has certainly been individually applied to muds, I'm sure. As to learning C, choosing a codebase, learning to build, etc. Some thoughts..

The majority of codebases available to you that have already been developed have a bulk of their functionality predefined in C.
C is generally not considered a favourite language in today's age of technology when starting a new project.
C is generally considered a lower high level language and requests a good understanding of (and patience while using) low level fundamentals which other, newer, high level languages are making inconsequential (to a reasonable degree).
A higher level language is generally considered a language which is closer linguistically to human languages than it is to machine language (0's and 1's). Higher level languages therefore tend to be easier to understand by people who are newer to the discipline of computer science.
Higher level languages may also provide faster development time by hiding the nuts and bolts of lower level tasks from you. Using a language's garbage collector is in most cases far easier than using C's memory management.

Disclaimer: I use words like 'generally', 'reasonable degree', 'majority', 'in most cases', 'may'. I believe it's acceptable to make an argument that every language has the potential to be used as a tool to develop any project (with varying degrees of success). However, analogously, you wouldn't use a shovel to pound in a nail. Some tools are better suited for some tasks, both in the shovel-nail world and in the programming world.

Essentially, what I'm getting at is this. In the long run, regardless of shortcuts or otherwise, running a mud is demanding. Not only is it demanding, but it requires both thinking and planning ahead. As a developer, you may spend less time actually touching code than you do planning and documenting (... I'm not sure if I mean that jokingly or not). The less time you can spend with inconsequential hoops, the more time you can spend with consequential content. If you do decide to follow through learning to develop your own mud, your best bets are:

1. Document the hell out of your ideas from a layman's standpoint.
2. Forget about mud programming and learn a 'popular' high level language.
3. Learn another high level language.
4. Take what you've learned, decide if you need to learn another language or if you've found the right one for you and your project.
5. Revisit your documentation from (1) and (a) cry, (b) hang your head in shame, (c) realize you have a great idea and start your documentation process over again using the tools you've learned from (2) and (3).

The fact alone that you'll need to learn one language at a minimum means that before you're able to get started, you'll need to put in some serious hours learning. I feel the need to apologize ahead of time for giving it to you straight because in all sincerity, past experience has shown that most people give up on their ideas once they realize that an idea in and of itself is relatively meaningless compared to the enormity of effort required to realize the idea.
.........................
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Grif05
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#13 id:60714 Posted Feb 15, 2012, 12:41 pm

Oh Im aware that its gonna happen over night, or even in a months time. My original (and very flawed) idea was to coerce someone into being my mine coder while I learned, but a)coders dont just show up wanting to assist and b)its MY vision and so its easier for me to create it than to relay everything to someone else.
Right now Ive tinkered with smaugfuss, and was going to use that as a starting point. The hardest part being that I dont need any of it. While the combat system will be generic (unless inspiration drives me to a different style), most everything else isnt suited to my idea. I only chose it because its been suggested to me.

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#14 id:60771 Posted Feb 17, 2012, 6:25 am

Grif05 said:
Right now Ive tinkered with smaugfuss, and was going to use that as a starting point. The hardest part being that I dont need any of it. While the combat system will be generic (unless inspiration drives me to a different style), most everything else isnt suited to my idea. I only chose it because its been suggested to me.


IMO, CircleMud is a great starting place to consider.  Especially versions 3.1+ with dgscripts and oasisOLC.
There's nothing wrong with the SMAUG family, but I've found that Circle makes more sense to me personally.

Here's the potential problem for someone in your shoes:  You are brand new to programming.  You have a vision,
and yet you don't [yet] have the ability to see it to fruition.  This being the case, you have to slowly, painstakingly,
accumulate knowledge. This was the case with most of us here.  There's nothing wrong with that, but the real issue
is that until you have the skills you need to see your vision through, you will have a very stock MUD.

As long as you acknowledge this, you will avoid initial discouragement.  I recommend building zones as you move forward
in learning C.  If you wait too long to build, you might find yourself overly concerned with programming concepts.

Take me for instance.  I have spent the last 2 years learning how to program in C, C++, and Ruby.  Don't get me wrong,
I've had a blast, but my original vision hasn't gotten anywhere.  I've barely written any decent areas because I keep
changing my mind.  I've noticed there are several people like me that love MUDS, learn to write code, and then never
host their game.

In short, becoming a MUD engineer requires dedication and balance.  It's not going to happen over night, but you don't have
to wait 2 years to have a decent game as well.

I think it's awesome that you are starting down this path.  I almost wish I could start from the beginning.  Just remember,
if it's not fun, you won't end up doing it.
.........................
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RdaO2sGy6Jo/UXqmRANiPpI/AAAAAAAAARM/FkgyUR1PIuc/s1600/starrlab-logo.png

Last edited Feb 17, 2012, 6:26 am by JohnnyStarr
Hades_Kane
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#15 id:60772 Posted Feb 17, 2012, 7:06 am


JohnnyStarr said:
Grif05 said:
Right now Ive tinkered with smaugfuss, and was going to use that as a starting point. The hardest part being that I dont need any of it. While the combat system will be generic (unless inspiration drives me to a different style), most everything else isnt suited to my idea. I only chose it because its been suggested to me.


IMO, CircleMud is a great starting place to consider.  Especially versions 3.1+ with dgscripts and oasisOLC.
There's nothing wrong with the SMAUG family, but I've found that Circle makes more sense to me personally.

Here's the potential problem for someone in your shoes:  You are brand new to programming.  You have a vision,
and yet you don't [yet] have the ability to see it to fruition.  This being the case, you have to slowly, painstakingly,
accumulate knowledge. This was the case with most of us here.  There's nothing wrong with that, but the real issue
is that until you have the skills you need to see your vision through, you will have a very stock MUD.

As long as you acknowledge this, you will avoid initial discouragement.  I recommend building zones as you move forward
in learning C.  If you wait too long to build, you might find yourself overly concerned with programming concepts.

Take me for instance.  I have spent the last 2 years learning how to program in C, C++, and Ruby.  Don't get me wrong,
I've had a blast, but my original vision hasn't gotten anywhere.  I've barely written any decent areas because I keep
changing my mind.  I've noticed there are several people like me that love MUDS, learn to write code, and then never
host their game.

In short, becoming a MUD engineer requires dedication and balance.  It's not going to happen over night, but you don't have
to wait 2 years to have a decent game as well.

I think it's awesome that you are starting down this path.  I almost wish I could start from the beginning.  Just remember,
if it's not fun, you won't end up doing it.


An experience that I and almost anyone else I've ever known that has transitioned from "Builder" to "Coder" has had is that once you get really into coding, it becomes increasingly difficult to get motivated to build.  Whereas I used to be capable of doing an entire area (minus any scripting or quests) of about 50 vnums in a few days, the same amount of building has taken me more recently in the range of a few months.  It's a combination of both lacking the motivation and drive to write descriptions, and being all too eager to distract myself from doing that by finding things in the code that needs tweaked.  All of the core code systems are in place, and short of bug fixes, almost everything else on my coding todo list is just extra fluff for the game or revising systems that work fine now but just could work better/different, so I've had to force myself to get back into the swing of working on areas because we are painfully close to being able to officially open.  But I think JohnnyStarr's suggestion isn't too bad of one.  By building as you learn, you'll still be able to see some progress on your vision, and you'll get some areas done before that drive to develop on that aspect of your game disappears :p
.........................
-Diablos
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