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Diku License Violation
Jamdog
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#16 id:52945 Posted Dec 24, 2010, 3:26 pm

I wonder how likely it is that Sebastian Hammer, Tom Madsen, Katja Nyboe, Michael Seifert or Hans Henrik Staerfeldt will suddenly file a lawsuit against any Diku-family MUD that openly charges players for in-game perks?

I suspect it's pretty unlikely...
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#17 id:52946 Posted Dec 24, 2010, 4:58 pm

These breast cancer organizations aren't bound by relatively draconian licensing.  If you can't self fund your game don't use diku. 

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#18 id:52948 Posted Dec 24, 2010, 5:46 pm


Jamdog said:
I wonder how likely it is that Sebastian Hammer, Tom Madsen, Katja Nyboe, Michael Seifert or Hans Henrik Staerfeldt will suddenly file a lawsuit against any Diku-family MUD that openly charges players for in-game perks?

I suspect it's pretty unlikely...


Translation:  You can probably get away with stealing their work and doing what you want, despite the intentions of the authors, so why not?

*shrug*  Probably true.  All I can say is what goes around, comes around.  While people here will shun you for knowingly violating a license, and you may think that really doesn't matter much.  A few years down the road, your name and/or work might be noticed and remembered by someone who did care, and it might cost you a future job or the ability to sell a future product because one of those people you didn't care about suggested you had a history of copyright violation.

The internet never forgets.  As Runter said, if you want to collect money for your game, write your own driver or shop around and choose one that allows such activities.  If you're serious about making your game, you're going to be putting a LOT of time into it anyways, so spend a few extra weeks to do the research.  If you were just tossing something up to whip up a few rooms and bash things... don't bother.  We have plenty of those kinds of games already.

Happy non-offensive, non-denominational, holiday season!
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Rarva.Riendf
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#19 id:53937 Posted Feb 20, 2011, 3:36 pm

'You may under no circumstances make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in any possible way.'
Err if donations only covers the running cost of operation can you call this 'profit' anyway ?

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#20 id:53938 Posted Feb 20, 2011, 3:45 pm

Rarva.Riendf said:
'You may under no circumstances make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in any possible way.'
Err if donations only covers the running cost of operation can you call this 'profit' anyway ?


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profit

Quote:
3: net income usually for a given period of time


Net income is one possible way, regardless of how you use the money.

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#21 id:53941 Posted Feb 21, 2011, 1:04 am

Is learning C from their stupid errors a profit? Selling DikuMud-related merchandise? Donations?
Can you think of any non-profit organization that does profit "in any possible way"?
If I run a machine to sell useless accounts and to host original DikuMud totally for free at the same time -- do I "make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in any possible way"?

It seems to me that, due to poor wording used in the license, it is possible to act against their intentions and conform to their license, and vice versa.

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#22 id:53942 Posted Feb 21, 2011, 2:08 am

Vigud said:
Is learning C from their stupid errors a profit? Selling DikuMud-related merchandise? Donations?
Can you think of any non-profit organization that does profit "in any possible way"?
If I run a machine to sell useless accounts and to host original DikuMud totally for free at the same time -- do I "make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in any possible way"?

It seems to me that, due to poor wording used in the license, it is possible to act against their intentions and conform to their license, and vice versa.


FWIW there's a difference in the definition of getting profit and the legalities associated with an NPO.  You'd indeed profit in the sense that you get to run something without paying for the costs associated with running something.  I think my previous post still rings true.  If you don't like it, don't use the codebase.  There's plenty of (imo) better codebases with very liberal licensing available.   

Last edited Feb 21, 2011, 2:08 am by Runter
plamzi
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#23 id:53943 Posted Feb 21, 2011, 5:20 am


Runter said:
Vigud said:
Is learning C from their stupid errors a profit? Selling DikuMud-related merchandise? Donations?
Can you think of any non-profit organization that does profit "in any possible way"?
If I run a machine to sell useless accounts and to host original DikuMud totally for free at the same time -- do I "make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in any possible way"?

It seems to me that, due to poor wording used in the license, it is possible to act against their intentions and conform to their license, and vice versa.


FWIW there's a difference in the definition of getting profit and the legalities associated with an NPO.  You'd indeed profit in the sense that you get to run something without paying for the costs associated with running something.  I think my previous post still rings true.  If you don't like it, don't use the codebase.  There's plenty of (imo) better codebases with very liberal licensing available.   


QFT - both posters.

Clearly, the tone of the DikuMUD license is designed to dissuade anyone from making the codebase part of a commercial server enterprise. Since the license does not specify *any* acceptable ways to monetize, the clear implication is that you need to be paying for server maintenance costs, etc. by other means. In the terms set by the license, donations are a profit first, and it doesn't matter to what end they are used.

I'm pretty sure that many MUDs are not in full compliance with this overly restrictive clause. All I know is I'm not going to blow any whistles about it, especially if donations are used for maintenance costs only.

If I were starting a new project, I'd definitely look past DikuMUD based on the license alone, even if my goal was an entirely free-to-play, but self-funded, game server.
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#24 id:53944 Posted Feb 21, 2011, 5:56 am

Runter said:
Vigud said:
If I run a machine to sell useless accounts and to host original DikuMud totally for free at the same time -- do I "make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in any possible way"?
You'd indeed profit in the sense that you get to run something without paying for the costs associated with running something.
I don't see how it would be violating the license. I know for a fact that many Diku-based muds run on servers kindly provided for free by Internet Service Providers -- how would my example differ from that? Maybe I should clarify, that - in my example - the mud players wouldn't have to pay for anything and buying a useless account would be kind of indirect donation.

Rarva.Riendf
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#25 id:53945 Posted Feb 21, 2011, 6:12 am

'Net income is one possible way, regardless of how you use the money. '
To have a net income should you not have the ability to spend less than you gain ?
I am gueninely asking english langage is not my native one, and the forte of my native one being french is to use word that only have one meaning in legal stuff. (ben then again the forte is also to make a lot of laws thatcannot be followed in the same time)

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#26 id:53946 Posted Feb 21, 2011, 7:00 am

Rarva.Riendf said:
To have a net income should you not have the ability to spend less than you gain ?


That sounds more like the thinking of a commercial enterprise counting beans, not a mud hobbyist setting aside $10-20 from his <insert menial task here> job each month.
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#27 id:53947 Posted Feb 21, 2011, 9:38 am

Vigud said:
Runter said:
Vigud said:
If I run a machine to sell useless accounts and to host original DikuMud totally for free at the same time -- do I "make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in any possible way"?
You'd indeed profit in the sense that you get to run something without paying for the costs associated with running something.
I don't see how it would be violating the license. I know for a fact that many Diku-based muds run on servers kindly provided for free by Internet Service Providers -- how would my example differ from that? Maybe I should clarify, that - in my example - the mud players wouldn't have to pay for anything and buying a useless account would be kind of indirect donation.


That's obviously not the part I was responding to.  How about:

Quote:
Can you think of any non-profit organization that does profit "in any possible way"?


Frankly, what it sounds like you're wanting to do is angle shoot to justify breaking the license.  If there's any association between the people giving you money "unrelated" and the people playing your game it's a clear violation.  I.e.  "You guys pay me but claim it's for something else like an account on my server when it's really a contribution related to the game I'm running.  But we'll just say that to get around the license."    If you could do that then any license restricting profit could do the same thing without violating the license. 

On the other hand, if it was unrelated then it wouldn't be breaking the license, but making up fantasy about the real relationship of transfer of money is classically how fraud is committed.

Last edited Feb 21, 2011, 9:40 am by Runter
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#28 id:53948 Posted Feb 21, 2011, 1:26 pm

Plamzi said:
Since the license does not specify *any* acceptable ways to monetize, the clear implication is that you need to be paying for server maintenance costs, etc. by other means.

Are you sure? What legal basis are you using to conclude that only methods specified are acceptable, as opposed to only methods explicitly barred are unacceptable? This kind of claim is very specific legally and I don't think people should use intuition based on "clear implication" -- the clear implication to one person might be very different from somebody else's clear implication.
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#29 id:53949 Posted Feb 21, 2011, 2:33 pm

Until a real, bonafide copyright lawyer interprets the DIKU license (or even better, a judge rules on it), we're simply not going to know, in truth, what is and is not okay.

Until the original authors come out and say, "Hey, this is what WE MEANT and what we would want..." we're simply not going to know what was intended, regardless of how anyone interprets it.

So can we all just give it a ####ing rest, please, in 2011?

Hell, let's change the subject to gay marriage, abortion, or even one of Samson's crazy conspiracy theories. Let it go. Just let it go folks.

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#30 id:53950 Posted Feb 21, 2011, 2:39 pm

Needing a bonafide copyright lawyer to figure out if you're going to be able to use diku for your hobby game is YA reason not to use diku if you can't err on the side of following the license completely.

Also: 

Quote:
Until a real copyright / IP lawyer sits me down and explains it to me in person, I'm going to base my opinions on the spirit of the license, which in my opinion, is that donations are okay as long as they aren't used to thinly veil the purchasing of equipment, levels, etc.


So it's okay to receive money according to the license as long as there's no in game perks?  Maybe those sales of in game items were to only pay for server costs.  It seems to be the same exact violation to me.

Last edited Feb 21, 2011, 2:43 pm by Runter
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