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Permadeath design issues
ATT_Turan
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#61 id:37246 Posted Nov 6, 2009, 7:50 pm


Dean said:

ATT_Turan said:
Dean said:
Something to consider: 'Many believe death is an end...'


The...the failure level is over nine thousand?!?!  :surprised:


Guess I'll elaborate a little then. What I'm saying is, that even though permadeath might be employed in 'B' mud, there is no reason why it has to be the end of a dying character's journey in that mud. It's already been mentioned how (some) Scifi muds with permadeath have cloning available. Why not, in a fantasy setting upon death, have the player take control of themselves but in ghost form for example. At first, you might be an incredibly weak ghost with little skills to speak of but the longer you remain on the mortal plane, the stronger you become, gaining additional abilities as you go (like being able to manipulate physical objects). Early on as a ghost, you might be able to 'step into the light' and end your character, gaining maximum copyover xp for your next character but after you progress to a certain point, you'd lose that option with the only way out being banished (or whatever). The stronger you become as a spirit, you gain less copyover XP.

Meh, I need a coffee or five.



Guess I'll elaborate...my comment was meant to be humorous as I suspect you meant to say in your original post "many people believe death is not an end, but rather..."

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#62 id:37247 Posted Nov 6, 2009, 7:58 pm

No, the 'not' is not supposed to be there.

"Many believe death is an end, but rather, it is the beginning of another journey."

Paraphrased: many people believe that death is an end, but this belief is not correct, because it is the beginning of another journey.

In other words, Dean's version opposes many people's belief with an intended correction, whereas your version is making a statement about what people who believe the corrected version also believe. If that makes sense. (In a hurry...)
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#63 id:37248 Posted Nov 6, 2009, 8:03 pm


David Haley said:
No, the 'not' is not supposed to be there.

"Many believe death is an end, but rather, it is the beginning of another journey."

Paraphrased: many people believe that death is an end, but this belief is not correct, because it is the beginning of another journey.

In other words, Dean's version opposes many people's belief with an intended correction, whereas your version is making a statement about what people who believe the corrected version also believe. If that makes sense. (In a hurry...)


Oh fine, be that way  :tongue:    Just 'cause the sentence works both ways, Turan isn't allowed to be funny...I see how it is, fine, go ahead, stuff my pillowcase with cuttlefish.

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#64 id:37251 Posted Nov 6, 2009, 10:34 pm

I had pondered whether or not you were taking the 'miccy' out of me, being humorous or actually serious. I went with the latter, even though I had initially intended to make that post with that line I first posted. But when you've had all of 2 hours sleep in the last four days, you tend to refrain from such posts.  :lol:
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#65 id:37252 Posted Nov 7, 2009, 12:37 am

tangent/

Scandum said:
(re: more exp for hours)That's a pretty cool idea, and solves the problem of people sticking with one or two areas for leveling. With a speed that slow (12 days to get to 300%) you'd need a stable mud though.


Yeah, mine usually only goes down if we're putting in new areas or code, although occasionally someone finds a glitch for me to fix heh. But I do really dig that approach. 'off the beaten path' gets people really out and exploring. I put in quite a few incentives to 'group up' as well, +10% exp bonus per PC in the group (up to 200% max). I just figure that at least in my game, the running around together is a huge fun factor, it also gets people to 'bring buddies' on sometimes.

Random treasure on mobs (with increased chances depending on certain qualities of the mob) also helps get people out looking around, not always busting back to 'it repops here'.

/tangent
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#66 id:37254 Posted Nov 7, 2009, 1:57 am

Just throwing this idea out there.  As a permadeath compromise, what if players who die have to be brought back through the actions of other players?

The difficulty involved could vary depending on how harsh of a system you want.  Maybe it requires a rare item so only a certain percentage of those who die can come back.  Maybe players have to collectively sacrifice enough xp to reach the level of the dead character to bring them back.  This would make it easier for newbies, but harder as the game goes on.  Or it could be relatively easy, but require the cooperation of many characters.  The dead player would have to be well-liked enough for it to happen.  I'm kind of reminded of the myth of Baldr's death.

One of the advantages of permadeath given in Bartle's book is it encourages people to try new characters.  People will do that in this system while they try to arrange their resurrection.  Even if resurrection is extremely difficult, the emotional loss of a character will be diminished because players will feel there's still hope that they can bring their old characters back.

As far as the loss of accomplishment, that can vary depending on how much effort it takes to bring a dead character back.

I'm conflicted about permadeath personally.  I can see the merits in terms of drama and avoiding stagnation, but the cost seems too high.  The more you reduce the costs, the less what you have is permadeath.  It's complicated by the fact that it's so much easier to die in many games than it is in real life.  Not even in the most war-torn countries of the world does the average person have a hundred fights-to-the-death with hordes of monsters every day before breakfast.

Interestingly enough, I've heard some Native American myths where this same debate took place among the gods.

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#67 id:37264 Posted Nov 7, 2009, 11:41 am

Impacatus said:
The difficulty involved could vary depending on how harsh of a system you want.  Maybe it requires a rare item so only a certain percentage of those who die can come back.  Maybe players have to collectively sacrifice enough xp to reach the level of the dead character to bring them back.  This would make it easier for newbies, but harder as the game goes on.  Or it could be relatively easy, but require the cooperation of many characters.  The dead player would have to be well-liked enough for it to happen.  I'm kind of reminded of the myth of Baldr's death.


Isn't that not perma death? :P

The only way to really make permadeath bearable, is making it not such a big deal. As in, advancement being easily attainable.
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#68 id:37274 Posted Nov 7, 2009, 1:33 pm

Davion said:
The only way to really make permadeath bearable, is making it not such a big deal. As in, advancement being easily attainable.

What if we replace the words "easily" with something like "not tiresome(ly)", or "interesting(ly)", would you still agree with that statement?  Supposing that advancement didn't take that much time to do, but required a bit of cooldown for the buying of skills.  Then achiever types could continue to amass gold for equipment and later skill training, and other people could just do other things that interest them until the cooldown wears off and they can train more, provided that they had enough gold for the next amount of training.  And since doing things that interest you tends to lead to gold anyway (except in the case of socializers, I guess), it seems like this would work pretty well as a non-intrusive, non-tiresome XP system.

It has another bonus of not gimping people who can't be online 39 hours a day grinding away XP, as the cooldown would last for a set amount of time, and would lapse whether the person was online or not.  (more accurately, it would lapse when they login)

It may also contain any number of practical flaws.

One possible downside I can see is that gold could become the new grinding point, and people might just try to amass equipment instead of waiting for the cooldown.  I'm not sure this is necessarily a problem, provided that equipment isn't disproportionately powerful.  You can also acquire gold through a larger variety of means, though, so I'm not entirely sure it would end up as a grinding point unless people chose to do it that way.
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#69 id:37276 Posted Nov 7, 2009, 1:46 pm


Davion said:
Impacatus said:
The difficulty involved could vary depending on how harsh of a system you want.  Maybe it requires a rare item so only a certain percentage of those who die can come back.  Maybe players have to collectively sacrifice enough xp to reach the level of the dead character to bring them back.  This would make it easier for newbies, but harder as the game goes on.  Or it could be relatively easy, but require the cooperation of many characters.  The dead player would have to be well-liked enough for it to happen.  I'm kind of reminded of the myth of Baldr's death.


Isn't that not perma death? :P
Well, I did say it was a compromise.  :wink:

Besides, it depends.  If resurrection requires an item that only spawns once per four deaths, then 3/4 deaths are permanent.  If it requires cooperation and sacrifice from a significant number of people, it's permanent for the players everyone hates.  It all depends on what it takes to resurrect a character.

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#70 id:37282 Posted Nov 7, 2009, 4:45 pm

Quote:

Many muds take this route, banning people for "powergaming", or for bad roleplaying, or for questioning design decisions, or for disagreeing with the admin, or for playing other muds, etc, etc.  Banning people is the easy option (and it gets easier the more you do it), but it's certainly not the only one, nor will it necessarily solve the actual problem.


I'm not sure how I can put this is clearer English, KaVir.  There is a difference between "you annoy me" and "you are actually a ####ing problem that is driving away players and making admin life a living hell."  Banning one is horrifically bad GM-manship, and the other is a necessity.

It's the difference between just ignoring that guy at work you don't like because he's obnoxious and calling the cops on your neighbor for beating his kids.

Quote:

Exactly.  We do perfectly fine without some omnipotent god figure banning those who don't live the way they're "supposed" to.


So the people just put themselves in jail?

The admins serve the roles of police, judge, jury, and "executioner."  That of course means actually playing out all of those roles: noting evidence of bad behavior, comparing evidence against the actual rules and their effects on the game community, deciding if that bad is honestly worthy of punishment, and then taking appropriate action (which could very well be no action at all if it's decided it's not a real problem).

Somebody has to make those decisions though.  They don't just get magically made for you while you're off in la-la land pretending everybody loves each other very very much.

Quote:

Yes it is, ignoring the holes in your design is even worse than using the 'ban' command to stop people exploiting them.  But I don't like either option.  I would rather plugs the holes.


There is no way to plug holes in behavioural problems without some form of enforced consequence.  Being a detriment to a community does not require breaking the rules of the game design.  It has absolutely nothing at all in any way to do with the game design.  Not even a little.  Even if your game had mechanics that made it literally impossible to be an asshole to other players (which is impossible), players can cause problems in out-of-game ways, such as on a game's member forum.

Either people play nice or they're active forces of assholery, and there's no magic bullet you can pull out of your butt to the make the latter type of person suddenly fit in.  If he doesn't want to play nice, make him go play somewhere else.

Quote:
Banning people should be your last resort, for situations your design simply can't deal with.


Which is no different than anything I've said.  I never said "ban early and ban often," only that you have to have the balls to ban someone that needs banning.

You really just like to argue about nothing at all, don't you? ;)

Quote:

Well at least you wouldn't have to worry about being banned for disagreeing with me ;)


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#71 id:37287 Posted Nov 7, 2009, 5:53 pm


Impacatus said:
Just throwing this idea out there.  As a permadeath compromise, what if players who die have to be brought back through the actions of other players?

As much as I like this idea (And I really do) it only works if you have a good sized playerbase. It would be infinitely annoying to die at a time when you were one of the few, if not only player currently online. I can see that it might get to the point where players take 0 risks at low playing times or maybe just not play at all. Which would be a problem.

There is also the issue of newbies. If a level 15 newbie dies, he will spam all the other players with requests to resurrect him. There would need to be some way to stop this, or allow characters below a certain level to be resurrected automatically with a penalty.
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#72 id:37288 Posted Nov 7, 2009, 6:00 pm

elanthis said:
Quote:
Many muds take this route, banning people for "powergaming", or for bad roleplaying, or for questioning design decisions, or for disagreeing with the admin, or for playing other muds, etc, etc.  Banning people is the easy option (and it gets easier the more you do it), but it's certainly not the only one, nor will it necessarily solve the actual problem.

I'm not sure how I can put this is clearer English, KaVir.  There is a difference between "you annoy me" and "you are actually a ####ing problem that is driving away players and making admin life a living hell."

However there are also many shades of grey in between the two.  Where are you going to draw the line?

elanthis said:
Banning one is horrifically bad GM-manship, and the other is a necessity.

As I said before, banning isn't going to stop the player connecting - they can use proxies to come back whenever they like.  Laying the smack down on people who irritate you might give some short term satisfaction, but it's not necessarily going solve the actual problem.

elanthis said:
Quote:
We do perfectly fine without some omnipotent god figure banning those who don't live the way they're "supposed" to.

So the people just put themselves in jail?

Well god certainly doesn't put them there.

elanthis said:
The admins serve the roles of police, judge, jury, and "executioner."

Perhaps.  It depends on the specifics of your game.

elanthis said:
Quote:
Yes it is, ignoring the holes in your design is even worse than using the 'ban' command to stop people exploiting them.  But I don't like either option.  I would rather plugs the holes.

There is no way to plug holes in behavioural problems without some form of enforced consequence.

It depends what sort of problems you're talking about, but depending on the style of mud you're running it's certainly possible to curb most (or even all) of the problems through code.

elanthis said:
Being a detriment to a community does not require breaking the rules of the game design.  It has absolutely nothing at all in any way to do with the game design.  Not even a little.  Even if your game had mechanics that made it literally impossible to be an asshole to other players (which is impossible), players can cause problems in out-of-game ways, such as on a game's member forum.

I don't think causing problems out-of-game is really relevant to the subject of dealing with in-game problems.  But as I said already, depending on the specifics of your game (and how you defines "undesirable behaviour"), it's certainly possible to deal with such problems without the need for banning.
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#73 id:37291 Posted Nov 7, 2009, 11:55 pm

Mudder said:

Impacatus said:
Just throwing this idea out there.  As a permadeath compromise, what if players who die have to be brought back through the actions of other players?

As much as I like this idea (And I really do) it only works if you have a good sized playerbase. It would be infinitely annoying to die at a time when you were one of the few, if not only player currently online. I can see that it might get to the point where players take 0 risks at low playing times or maybe just not play at all. Which would be a problem.

There is also the issue of newbies. If a level 15 newbie dies, he will spam all the other players with requests to resurrect him. There would need to be some way to stop this, or allow characters below a certain level to be resurrected automatically with a penalty.
That's a good point.  I think one thing that would be essential in making a harsher-than-usual death system work is reducing the frequency of death.  I feel an experienced player should be able to play the game without seriously risking death. 

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#74 id:37293 Posted Nov 8, 2009, 4:08 am

It seems that people want permadeath to add risk to the game, and then spend a great deal of time thinking about how to avoid that risk in the first place. Surely, there are other ways to motivate players toward or against certain behaviors than creating features that you then work to nullify?
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#75 id:37303 Posted Nov 8, 2009, 8:16 am

David Haley said:
It seems that people want permadeath to add risk to the game, and then spend a great deal of time thinking about how to avoid that risk in the first place. Surely, there are other ways to motivate players toward or against certain behaviors than creating features that you then work to nullify?


I think the bottom line is these people want permanent death for one reason or another, and then want to make it work after the fact.  Perhaps that one reason is because of realism.  There are certainly better mechanisms for risk based on death in my opinion that doesn't involve purging characters.

Also perhaps the problems it creates is an acceptable price to doing business to some designers.
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