Oh, get off of it. Nobody is asking you to leave. And you are hardly the only person who cares. The fact that this thread exists, and was civil, is proof of that.

Nobody had to. It's been made clear nobody here except one person truly wanted actual useful moderation besides myself and other admins. And once more, I got made the instrument of that policy and I'm sick of being the one called into question whenever its enacted as though it's evil, immoral, and just plain wrong. Enough is enough. It isn't going to matter who locks the threads. People will complain. Don't lock them. The same people will complain. Use some sort of middle of the road approach. The same people complain. I'm reasonably certain that the same people will continue to complain about whatever methods the remaining admins use to try and resolve the unresolvable.

My patience with it was worn thin already after December and has only been wearing thinner as time goes by. I can already see that recent decisions made have backfired yet again because, surprise, the same people complained. If all anyone ever does is complain about you and your work, tell me you won't get angry and irrational? Tell me that no matter how you try and deal with it that people changing their complaints wouldn't drive you nuts? It no longer matters who is right or who is wrong, because all anyone does is complain about the outcome. Well, have fun with that.

Wow.

I think one word sums it up..

I haven't been around Mudbytes for very long, and I've yet to be on Mudmagic, so I'm not clear on a lot of what all has happened in the past (aside from the few spillovers to TMC in the past). Maybe I'm just not keeping up enough on forum posts here (I only check posts via the Recent Posts listing), but could someone point out where conversations and flaming, if any, have broken out to a moderation-neccessary level in recent enough times that I would have noticed? I ask because I haven't noticed anything of the sort. The only thing I've seen relating at all to this thread is when Hades_Kane made some cautionary statement regarding a topic that might have been straying towards unsavory territory, somehow resulting in a thread lock; followed by a continuation thread and another thread lock. Is that what this is all about? If not, I'm confused.

Anyhow, as a side note, I can't necessarily speak of my own experience as though it'll be applicable to yours, Samson, but I've had (and continue to have, from time to time) various bouts of intense frustration and anger over anything from major problems of some sort, to merely nothing at all; to that end, I'd simply suggest you may need to look into one or more methods of relieving that stress you appear to have. Meditation works wonders for me, personally. Maybe some Medication if meditating isn't your thing or doesn't work for you (I don't like mood drugs, but they appear to work for some people). Or, failing those two and continuing the use of M words for the sake of humor, Masturbation. Reproductive purposes aside, I imagine it'd help cut down on that stress of yours - if even temporarily.

Again, I can't say that my experience is necessarily applicable to yours, but I can say with relative certainty that if you continue to let things get to you the way they are without finding better ways of dealing with it, it'll just make things worse for you - mentally or otherwise.

I hope that helps somehow. If not, my apologies.

Well –

Basically, this little undeclared war has been going on for quite a long time. There're two sides:

1. Samson/Mine/etc's

2. Conner/Hades_Kane's..(none of them more than any of the others, they're all equally guilty)

People on side one post on a topic that's apparently 'sensitive' or does something that side two just can't resist picking on. One apparent random comment by someone on side two eventually snowballs into a flame war, in which both sides hurl insults. Thread gets locked.

Some main examples of the most recent events:
The Russia/Georgia thread

The thread I made to advertise for my blog (MU*News), which -apparently- didn't have anything to do with America so I wasn't allowed to put an American flag on it

The recent flamethreads between Hades_Kane and Samson

This has gone on several times. I personally think that the moderator priveleges just need to be spread around to people like Zeno and some of the other more loyal people who aren't in the flamebait camp.

Honestly, though, this is nothing new.. but this IS the kind of thing that is eventually going to destroy the community – it's just more visible in a smaller place like MUDBytes.

- Zenn

I have no idea if you were being serious, poking fun, or just relieving your own stress, but that made absolutely no sense. Anyway, since the cause of my stress seems to be tied in to being the target of the anti-moderation crowd's anger and hatred, I guess that won't be an issue anymore and they'll have to find someone else to make mad.

@Zenn: For the record, I went back and read Conner's post again after Kayle pointed it out. He seems to be more on the #1 side than the #2 side. I've never known him to agitate a situation when the opportunity arises. And I tend to agree at this point. Find some more moderators. Anyone. But whoever it is will be the target of the same foul hatred of authority. I have nothing but the utmost respect for anyone who is willing to put themselves in the line of fire after having seen it go on and on for so long that it's essentially broken any desire for involvement I had left.

I just noticed this part. When/Where were porn images linked to over the network? Do you have logs or anything? And why didn't you bring this to my attention if it bothered you? As for what the community accepts and what it doesn't.. I can't speak for the whole community, but I don't like to see porn shot across the channels any more than you do, and the occasional "dirty" joke is fine with me, but if it becomes a regular thing, I'm likely to crack down on it. And there's only been one time the righteous hammer of retribution has fallen that I know of.

I'm perfectly willing to kick some anti-moderator flamebaiter ***es. As I'm sure at least 5-10 other people on here would be. Don't leave, Samson, don't let a handful of idiots ruin everything for you.

(Also, sorry if I mis-accused Conner of being a side-two-er)

Now if you had said that you would be willing to put yourself out there and give it ago, rather than kick some asses, then i would have thrown my support behind you, as you seem to be level headed and impartial, well tempered and well generally the type of person who would be good at moderating.



Agreed, don't let the anti crowd be the reason for your total disappearance from the mud world. You have started something that in the long run will benefit everyone and should be scene to completion. If you don't feel that you personaly have the strength to face things head on, you could always work behind the scene's training, guiding and mentoring those who show potential, interest and drive to put back into the community. Like Zenn for example.



LOL, Conner is one of the most level headed and even handed people on these boards. We could certainly do with a few more of his ilk. He is someone i would nominate to moderate, but i know he has more than enough on his plate as it is without loading him up with more. As Samson said "I've never known him to agitate a situation when the opportunity arises."



The thing is, I agree with you and i can see that our very actions are what is leading to a decline in muds. There is a real shortage of talented people. Take for instance the new start up mud. (something that there has been a lot of in the last week or two). We all know that 99% of new muds fail within the first 6 months. But after they shut the doors what happens to them? Are they recycled back into the system? Or are they lost to the void? Sadly it would seem the latter, most of them quit and never come back. This is not good for any of us, least of all anyone who is running their own game.

Start up games are the place most people learn the basic skills of game administration. These people have the big ideas, they are the dreamers and have the motivation to get things done and are potentially an asset to anyone's game. So, how do we treat them? We flame them for using a codebase we don't subscribe to, for spelling mistakes, for poorly crafted staff posts, for using a theme that we don't subscribe to and for a litany of other little things that we find fun to poke at, even for dreaming of making a mud. Hardly surprising that its impossible to find staff, or anyone other than the regulars posting on the community forums.

If we don't all start to care for something more than our little patch, it won't be long before there is nothing left to care about. For me, its about forgetting the past, my differences and working with whomever wants to actually do something positive for the mud world. A moderated community forum, where newbies can post and make mistakes and not treated like idiots for doing so is certainly a step in the right direction.

The_Fury's Brave New Vision for a Better MUD Community (TFBNVBMUDC)

Hear Hear! :biggrin:

No, really.

That's all well and good, Fury, but it's an impossibility with the current state of things in the community. There aren't enough people that care anymore for it to make a difference, most people have given up hope of the MUDing world returning to what it used to be. Graphical MMOs are largely, but not solely to blame. Those members of the community born and bred in the cesspool that is the TMC Forums play a large role as well. It's fairly impossible for someone who's looking to play MUDs not come across TMC. It's the largest MUD Listing around. And unfortunately, a lot of times, it's the first place a new player or admin finds. And they see what goes on there and they get discouraged. For the community to return to what it once was, and for us to have a surplus of players again, TMC would have to clean up it's act, and the Trolls and Flamers that breed and corrupt others over there would have to grow up, set aside their differences and work together.

Sadly, this isn't something I see happening. Because nobody really cares. Sure, people say they do. But they don't. They're only ever concerned with their own little patch of grass. And most people look at the gory, war-ridden past of the community, and they don't want to care about anything but their own patch of grass. I'm a perfect example. I look at Medievia and GodWars and it saddens me. I put a lot of work into my codebase, and Most people will never see it's insides, because I won't turn my work over to a bunch of people for them to remove comments, add some trivial code changes and call my work their own original work.

I don't want to sound all "Gloom and Doom" but it's the truth. I think Mr. Gibbs from Pirates of the Caribbean put it best. "We're all thinking it, I'm just saying it."

Thread locked!












just kidding

I really don't think the choices are


A) The total destruction of what we love
B) Overly aggressive threadlocking


My preference would be to discuss the issue without
invoking apocalypse, because I don't think it adds
any clarity or useful perspective.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net

alas, easier said than done

Wow, indeed.

I basically agree with the gloom and doom predictions for the MUD world, except I'm not sure if it's future or perhaps, already past tense. I'm here because I see this as the only forum around that has a prayer of developing into friendly, constructive site that doesn't eat its young. I'm not into Smaug, Circle, IMC, or whatever, so many of the issues referred to here are unknown to me. When the flaming starts, I start scanning, just looking for an opening to interject a positive comment to bring the thread back on track, so even the "sides" outlined above aren't clear to me. Thus, this seems like my best opportunity to offer perhaps the most objective (semi-informed) appraisal you guys are going to get.

Mr. Haley, your post count says it all. I can't point to a recent occurrence, so perhaps you've turned over a new leaf, but your self-admitted posting for your own enjoyment has derailed many, many threads and rendered them worthless due to the off-topic noise level. When you're on topic, you've got one of the best brains around, but I have for some time felt that banning you might be the most productive thing they could do to improve the overall utility of the information here. Again, forgive me if I'm beating a dead horse, but no one (and that's why this isn't a PM) should see this as their private playground. There are others here, but more importantly there are others out there, and we want to make this place attractive to them, no?

Samson, I know I only see the tip of the iceberg. What's visible is your stress and discomfort. This thread had me in awe, and I was thinking it should be stickied as a reminder that we can all have a mature discussion. Your first post contained a veiled threat, but seemed a reasonable assurance from a moderator. Your second post opened with a snarky remark, and the tone of the thread changed slightly, and suddenly for a while there yes, it was all about you. Your subsequent posts, however, were a great surprise, in particular your response (or, rather a careful lack of…) to Lobotomy was well handled. As I said, I haven't really a clue what's it's all about, but I wish you'd change your title. The joke is lost on newbies (and me). I see you as a very constructive element with just a bit too much baggage. Please, don't leave. You are not the problem, and you seem one of the best bets for an answer.

The rest of you, I haven't seen enough to go into specific details, but you've all blown your covers. You can be mature and reasonable. It would be wonderful if this could be maintained. As to moderation on this site, I think David is correct. There is a middle ground. I've seen threads locked for one offensive word. Hello? You don't even need to comment, just edit the word. By locking the thread you have not removed the offense, but you have made any reparations or apologies impossible. Again, you have not removed the offense, you have made it part of the permanent archive here. This needs to stop. On the other side, everyone should be more moderate in their posts. You all damn well know what's acceptable. If you want to play a game and score points for slipping one by, or tweaking the Mod's nose, I know a great place where that would actually be constructive. ;) (okay, I hate their guts, would love to see them crash and burn, and totally despair when I see who's there (only by reference of course, I will never log in there, not even to complain about stolen code posted in my name), as certain names give them way to much cred.)

In response to Kayle, I too, am concerned about the future of MUDs. I threw myself behind MudQuest as an attempt to provide a more palatable gateway for new players than TMC or MM provides. Alas, we failed, it came down to just three of us and we totally burned out. My post from two days ago asking "Are we dead yet?" has had no response. While I agree most only care for themselves (there's something wonderfully isolating about being on a MUD), I see glimmers of commonality here and there and just last night I was wondering if somewhere there was some channel through which we could collect ourselves and perhaps forge a new portal, a new approach, to the wonderful world of automated* text gaming.

This is isn't meant to be a manifesto, just a localised comment on this thread, but we are all here, and ipso fact we share a common concern. As they say, there's strength in numbers, and I'm thinking (wishfully, perhaps) that if we could all get over posing as victims and realise this place is what we make it with every word we post, we might just work together and create something of value. Okay, "work together" requires agreeing on a goal, and it's obvious agreeing with each other is not our strong point. I guess, really, I'm proposing compromise. Anyone willing to try?


* I make this distinction as a separation from forum RP, mostly, though there are MUSHes that could fall into this category, really only providing rooms and props.

** Kayle, count me in as #3. This post has only taken 2 1/2 hours.

Sandi wrote:


Are you sure you're talking about the right person here?
DH, as far as I know, is one of the most level-headed,
on-topic, and contributing members of this bunch. Are you
sure you're thinking of the same DH I am? You really
think he's acting like this is his private playground?

I'm not at all joking or trolling or whatever. Can you
give me an example of a thread DavidHaley screwed up? I'm
really short-circuiting over this assertion!

And, not to seem like I'm nitpicking or whatever, but I
don't at all think post count says anything relevant here.
What do you mean that the post count says it all?

I'm very, very confused by your post, Sandi.


Sandi wrote:


Please forgive me if I seem like I'm picking a fight with you…
I really am not. I think this statement is dead wrong, and
this very thread is proof of it. The problem is that it is
not clear what is acceptable. HK's comments seem "not ok". However
they seem "not ok" based on the opinion they express, rather
than the topic or hate-level. The boundaries here are very,
very clear for some people. To others, they are not. You seem
to be one of the people that has so intuitive an understanding
of the boundaries that you assume everyone else must know
them also. They don't.

Please do not assume bad faith on my part when I assert that
the boundaries are not clear to me. Note Samson's language when
locking this thread: http://mudbytes.net/index.php?a=topic&am...

Is it ok for me to use that kind of tone when responding to
an admin's post? If not, why not?

I'm sorry, Sandi, I don't think things are as clear as you
make them. Perhaps your self-confessed innocence of some of
the issues here are preventing you from seeing that it really
isn't that black-and-white. Perhaps it's your self-confessed
hatred for some of the alternatives. I don't know. But I do not
see your analysis as being "objective", though I strongly
agree it seems "semi-informed."

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net

It's on the public logs: Wed Aug 20 22:19:49 2008 by the log's timestamps.


Didn't run into you, forgot about PM, etc. Mostly, it didn't bother me enough to go out on a holy crusade; it just surprised me to see it appear and then go unnoticed.


All this talk of sides is part of the problem… This isn't some petty war with the good guys and the bad guys, as simple (simplistic?) and nice as that would be. Trying to reduce this to two "sides" shows a considerable lack of understanding of what is going on.


Not really. The steps involved are to not lock threads as soon as they look like they might get sensitive, but to step in when they actually get out of hand. Actually, I thought your intervention in the 'spelling' thread was a good example of middle-ground moderation…


If you mean the MUD community at large, maybe you're right. If you mean just here, I don't think that TMC has much to do with it other than a source of grudges that people just need to let go of or ignore.


With all due respect, I disagree here. I suppose it depends on what you mean by "care", but as I said to Samson, if nobody cared, this thread wouldn't exist. If you mean code sharing, well, there are issues there that you described, but also, these things just move slowly. Full code bases don't get written overnight. :wink: Besides, I think it's a little unfair to say that there is no code sharing at all; just recently there have been some contributions to, say, FUSS, by people who aren't on the development team. And many people are willing to help answer questions.

David, I'm sorry I mentioned this. Please forgive.


Crat, I spent an hour looking, and found nothing. Of course the search function seems to think David's posted nothing at all here. But I very clearly remember being repeatedly disappointed that threads which I hoped would come to some conclusion petered out into back and forth quibbling between some guy with more posts than the mods and someone else. Who is not important, really. I was not trying to point fingers, and it does take at least two. My point was meant to support my thesis that along with improved moderation we also each need a certain degree of personal restraint.

No worries, Sandi. I think that what you probably saw were long, drawn-out discussions that interested people involved in them but not those who weren't, which is unsurprising given what the topics in question were. I'm not sure it is entirely fair to prevent one group from having the discussion, but, naturally, the presence of the tangent makes it harder to follow the original topic. The nature of this forum's threading makes it hard to separate the two groups; everything gets lumped into one linear pile of posts. In fact, that is why I suggested tree-based threading at one point, but for various reasons (several of which made good sense) it was not a terribly popular idea. Of course, personal restraint is always helpful – but, if I may, I do not think that posting less per se is the kind of restraint we need most. It is the content itself that needs restraining from time to time.

(edited for a spelling mistake)

I'm slightly confused here as to what different levels of moderation there are. I've always thought Iron Fist to be restricting people's speech, editing/deleting posts, and banning. I hardly see a few threads getting locked as a form of iron fist ruling. Why would you even fear a thread getting locked? It's not a personal attack. It's not a mark against your account. It doesn't decide who right or wrong… it simply puts a halt to the discussion we don't see going anywhere useful. It's part of our job as moderators to make that judgment and should it be wrong, oh well! We all make mistakes. Even us MudBytes admins are human ;). When there's valuable conversation going on, we do tend to split off the junk and lock it down to allow a discussion to continue to blossom. I also don't think a call out for more moderators would work. Having more people who can lock threads doesn't seem like the right idea.