20 Jun, 2013, KaVir wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
I recently bought a copy of Faster than Light, having found the concept rather intriguing. There are various reviews about it, but if you can't be bothered to Google, there's a short review complete with screenshots here.

It's described as a Roguelike, but I can't help thinking how it would also work very well as a MUD. In fact you could play it just as easily through a text-based interface, although the graphics definitely make it feel more interactive - but they're simple enough (with little animation) that you could probably create something similar without a big budget.

I recall thinking in the past how cool it would be to have a space trading MUD (along similar lines to Elite), but I always felt that the combat side of it would fall short. FTL doesn't have trading, but the combat is really fun, and handled in a way that could easily be implemented in a MUD.
20 Jun, 2013, Kline wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
FWIW, I'd certainly play a MUD similar to FTL. It really is fun and while I typically don't like Roguelikes, I like FTL. It's a game I'd sit down to play for 30 minutes and then wonder where 4 hours went somehow…Just "one more move".
22 Jun, 2013, Kelvin wrote in the 3rd comment:
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FTL makes me want to throw my keyboard at the wall. I'll be cruising along, doing awesome, only for things to take a turn for the worse suddenly, sending me spiraling to my death with much haste.
22 Jun, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 4th comment:
Votes: 0
FTL is fun! Dwarf Fortress is fun! "Losing is fun!"(TM)

Also, for a more nethackish game, try Sword of the Stars: The Pit.
23 Jun, 2013, Kelvin wrote in the 5th comment:
Votes: 0
On a more serious note, I have been working on something FTL'ish off and on for a while. The problem is that I haven't been able to come up with a space combat system that is the right blend of simple and interesting. So I've got something with basic space movement and ships, but little else: https://github.com/gtaylor/dott
23 Jun, 2013, Lundex wrote in the 6th comment:
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After picking up this game. I've lost almost twelve hours and only unlocked two ships and a layout. This game makes even the most patient gamer throw his computer to the wind.
25 Jun, 2013, Kelvin wrote in the 7th comment:
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btw, if anyone wants to talk "command ergonomics" about space games, hit me up. One of the reasons FTL is so good is that it's so simple with a mouse. A MU* doesn't have that going for it, so you've got to factor in the quantity and complexity of commands, the speed and nature of the weapons/combat, targeting, etc.

For example, let's take a combat sequence in FTL in MU* version, off the cuff:
  • target SOMESHIP (Optional. Perhaps they could pass this in with the fire command)
  • fire 1,2 A (Fire weapons 1 and 2 at the target in auto-fire mode)
  • scan (See the state of the enemy after your shots land)
  • status (Get a readout of your own ship. Hull, systems, power, etc.)
  • power teleporter -1 (Decrease power to system by 1)
  • power engines 1 (Increase power to engines by 1)
  • move SOMEGUY shields (Now we're starting to get kind of tedious)

It seems like the pace of space combat would need to be sufficiently slow to allow for typing. The better players would write a suite of macros to help, but it'd need to be accessible to the more casual players.

This was hastily done, so I may be missing some pieces. I particularly like the crew management and the variety in weapons in FTL, so this is something that would really interest me in a MU* context. Of course we could potentially improve our situation by adding some GUI elements, but I'd rather not assume we have them for the sake of game design.
25 Jun, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 8th comment:
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Management games call for triggers. Micromanaging through text is painful when it is the core of the game.
26 Jun, 2013, Runter wrote in the 9th comment:
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command-line not being the best interface for their games hasn't stopped anyone in this community before.
26 Jun, 2013, KaVir wrote in the 10th comment:
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Kelvin said:
Of course we could potentially improve our situation by adding some GUI elements, but I'd rather not assume we have them for the sake of game design.

Personally in this case I would. As you mentioned, one of the reasons FTL works so well is because of the simplicity of the interface.

I could see a command-line interface being useful for testing, scripting, blind players, and so on. But if I were creating a space mud I would definitely design it with a GUI in mind.

I'd have an interface and combat like FTL, with gameplay inspired by Elite 2. Customise your ship and explore a procedurally generated galaxy. Trade legal goods, or smuggle illegal ones. Have cabins fitted and deliver passengers, add mining lasers and collect ore. Fit weapons and go bounty hunting, or become an assassin. Basically it'd be a sandbox, you'd have your ship and could do whatever you liked, and all content would be either player-created or procedurally generated.
26 Jun, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 11th comment:
Votes: 0
Article in OP said:
The game is text-based to a degree. Events are conveyed through text, and you occasionally have options with apparently random outcomes.


KaVir said:
Kelvin said:
Of course we could potentially improve our situation by adding some GUI elements, but I'd rather not assume we have them for the sake of game design.

Personally in this case I would. As you mentioned, one of the reasons FTL works so well is because of the simplicity of the interface.

I could see a command-line interface being useful for testing, scripting, blind players, and so on. But if I were creating a space mud I would definitely design it with a GUI in mind.


Playing the devil's advocate here, I would say that FTL has apparently already struck a certain balance between text and graphical controls + visuals. If you're going to create an FTL-inspired game, and you set the balance between text and graphics in a different place, make sure it's for solid game design reasons (e. g., "I'm going to add more depth to interactions with the ship's crew", as opposed to, "I'm going to make people type every move they make because otherwise my game will not be a MUD.")

KaVir said:
I'd have an interface and combat like FTL, with gameplay inspired by Elite 2. Customise your ship and explore a procedurally generated galaxy. Trade legal goods, or smuggle illegal ones. Have cabins fitted and deliver passengers, add mining lasers and collect ore. Fit weapons and go bounty hunting, or become an assassin. Basically it'd be a sandbox, you'd have your ship and could do whatever you liked, and all content would be either player-created or procedurally generated.


I think this is a much better concept than your initial comment that "you could play it just as easily through a text-based interface". Putting together elements from different games into one is a classical move. The challenge here is that the more you deviate from a single central activity (players can fight, or trade, or mine and sell goods, or build "whatever they like"), the more niche the game would become. Most people are very genre-sensitive and don't respond well to free-form.
26 Jun, 2013, Kelvin wrote in the 12th comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
Kelvin said:
Of course we could potentially improve our situation by adding some GUI elements, but I'd rather not assume we have them for the sake of game design.

Personally in this case I would. As you mentioned, one of the reasons FTL works so well is because of the simplicity of the interface.

I could see a command-line interface being useful for testing, scripting, blind players, and so on. But if I were creating a space mud I would definitely design it with a GUI in mind.

I'd have an interface and combat like FTL, with gameplay inspired by Elite 2. Customise your ship and explore a procedurally generated galaxy. Trade legal goods, or smuggle illegal ones. Have cabins fitted and deliver passengers, add mining lasers and collect ore. Fit weapons and go bounty hunting, or become an assassin. Basically it'd be a sandbox, you'd have your ship and could do whatever you liked, and all content would be either player-created or procedurally generated.


But we are talking within the context of a text-based game here, right? If you're going to assume GUI, why even "limit" yourself to the boundaries of MUDs or text-based games? You could do so much better by discarding the textual "core".
26 Jun, 2013, KaVir wrote in the 13th comment:
Votes: 0
plamzi said:
Playing the devil's advocate here, I would say that FTL has apparently already struck a certain balance between text and graphical controls + visuals. If you're going to create an FTL-inspired game, and you set the balance between text and graphics in a different place, make sure it's for solid game design reasons (e. g., "I'm going to add more depth to interactions with the ship's crew", as opposed to, "I'm going to make people type every move they make because otherwise my game will not be a MUD.")

I think they've struck a pretty good balance, personally I'd aim for something similar.

plamzi said:
I think this is a much better concept than your initial comment that "you could play it just as easily through a text-based interface".

I was not proposing that you should create a text-based interface, only mentioning that FTL could easily be played through one. The point I was making is that you effectively have what feels like a text-based game, and then they've added a fairly simple (but well-designed) GUI over the top, and suddenly it makes the game feel far more interactive. The allusion should be pretty obvious in the context of text-based muds.

plamzi said:
Putting together elements from different games into one is a classical move.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any game that didn't draw elements from multiple sources (unless it was just trying to clone another game). I wasn't literally suggesting a hybrid of two games though, just summarising the basic concept - gameplay primarily inspired by Elite with an interface and combat system primarily inspired by FTL.

plamzi said:
The challenge here is that the more you deviate from a single central activity (players can fight, or trade, or mine and sell goods, or build "whatever they like"), the more niche the game would become.

Only if you have to do all of them. If you can choose what to do then it's the other way around - more choices means the game is less niche.

plamzi said:
Most people are very genre-sensitive and don't respond well to free-form.

I don't agree. A sandbox doesn't mean there can't be goals and achievements. But I far prefer a freeform environment like Elite (or GTA, or muds, etc) rather than being railroaded from start to finish along a linear storyline (like FTL).


Kelvin said:
But we are talking within the context of a text-based game here, right? If you're going to assume GUI, why even "limit" yourself to the boundaries of MUDs or text-based games?

Time, money, effort, experience. FTL is basically a text-based game with a simple custom GUI. Many of us already know how to create both, and have various resources we can reuse. A text-based interface would be fine for a proof-of-concept prototype of the core gameplay, and could probably be thrown together in a matter of weeks. It's something that would be realistically achievable as a hobby developer. There's a reason why Elite wanted a 1,250,000 budget, while FTL only needed a $10,000 budget.
26 Jun, 2013, Kelvin wrote in the 14th comment:
Votes: 0
So if I bang together the combat system, you'll write the GUI? :)
26 Jun, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 15th comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
Only if you have to do all of them. If you can choose what to do then it's the other way around - more choices means the game is less niche.

plamzi said:
Most people are very genre-sensitive and don't respond well to free-form.

I don't agree. A sandbox doesn't mean there can't be goals and achievements. But I far prefer a freeform environment like Elite (or GTA, or muds, etc) rather than being railroaded from start to finish along a linear storyline (like FTL).


Maybe I could have chosen a better word than 'freeform'. I didn't mean 'non-linear' but 'multi-genre'. Mixing genres equals complexity equals more niche. Presenting players with several very different career paths, while quite common in a MUD, is not at all common in the gaming industry, and I think the reasons are obvious.

On the question of choice, I cannot disagree more. More choices invite confusion (proven fact by game theorists) and offering too many equally valid choices often breeds dissatisfaction. The tricky part is striking the right balance between making the player 'feel like' they are free-roaming in an open-ended environment while not making them feel like every choice they have to make means that they're: A. likely to nerf their build or B. not going to experience huge chunks of game content with their current user/character.
26 Jun, 2013, KaVir wrote in the 16th comment:
Votes: 0
plamzi said:
Maybe I could have chosen a better word than 'freeform'. I didn't mean 'non-linear' but 'multi-genre'. Mixing genres equals complexity equals more niche. Presenting players with several very different career paths, while quite common in a MUD, is not at all common in the gaming industry, and I think the reasons are obvious.

The options I listed (customisable ship, procedurally generated galaxy, trading, smugging, passengers, mining, bounty hunting and assassinations) were all included in Elite 2, which received considerable praise for its variety of gameplay. The same features are also planned for Elite: Dangerous, which raised 1,578,316 on Kickstarter.
26 Jun, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 17th comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
plamzi said:
Maybe I could have chosen a better word than 'freeform'. I didn't mean 'non-linear' but 'multi-genre'. Mixing genres equals complexity equals more niche. Presenting players with several very different career paths, while quite common in a MUD, is not at all common in the gaming industry, and I think the reasons are obvious.

The options I listed (customisable ship, procedurally generated galaxy, trading, smugging, passengers, mining, bounty hunting and assassinations) were all included in Elite 2, which received considerable praise for its variety of gameplay. The same features are also planned for Elite: Dangerous, which raised 1,578,316 on Kickstarter.


Kickstarter is a great place for established developers to pitch sequels to games with cult following. It's going to result in some games being made that otherwise would never have seen the light of day. Nostalgia works wonders in crowd-sourcing.

In the early days of computer gaming, genres were not so established and many games combined elements that we would now think of as belonging to different categories. We would all be better off if we could think as freely as back then. But with each passing generation of players things get more distilled. A player's view is defined by the games they grew up playing and a lot of people grew up on a steady diet of formulaic gameplay. Probably, the makers of Elite: Dangerous realize the difficult task they have ahead of them.

It's like this in cinema, too. Some of the greatest, most praised, movies are the ones that mix genres and push envelopes. They are not ever likely to be confused with summer blockbusters.

Here's a cool quote:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier:_Elite_II said:
Frontier operates on a very large scale compared to previous games, and most games since. It is, for example, possible to do realistic gravitational slingshots around supermassive stars and large planets, and in the same engine fly close enough to the ground to read the (accurate) time from the face of a clock.


Wow :) Talk about geeks having fun!
26 Jun, 2013, KaVir wrote in the 18th comment:
Votes: 0
When I think of games with multiple paths, the one that really springs to mind is Deus Ex:

Quote
The game received universal critical and industry acclaim, including being named "Best PC Game of All Time" in PC Gamer's Top 100 PC Games and in a poll carried out by UK gaming magazine PC Zone. It was a frequent candidate for and winner of Game of the Year awards, drawing praise for its pioneering designs in player choice and multiple narrative paths.
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