08 Mar, 2007, Tyche wrote in the 42nd comment:
Justice said:
Tyche, if any of those people chose to revoke distribution rights, then it's well within their right to do so.
I never said they didn't. As A matter of fact in response to Samson's, "He's perfectly within his rights to revoke distribution for any reason he sees fit. It's his code.", I responded "Sure he is".
Justice said:
Having just checked the diku, merc, and smaug licenses, none of them grants the right to distribute.
Oh they didn't?
Diku License:
This document contains the rules by which you can use, alter or publish parts of DikuMud.
USC 17.1 Section 101:
“Publication” is the distribution of copies or phonorecords of a work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending. The offering to distribute copies or phonorecords to a group of persons for purposes of further distribution, public performance, or public display, constitutes publication. A public performance or display of a work does not of itself constitute publication.
Dictionary.com
pub·lish
1. to issue (printed or otherwise reproduced textual or graphic material, computer software, etc.) for sale or distribution to the public.
Yes the Diku license grants distribution rights under restrictions (I count 3 of them). Both the Merc and Smaug license incorporate the Diku license in its entirety and while adding restrictions of their own, don't add any further restrictionones on distribution rights.
If the MudBytes staff agrees with your strange reading of the license, it would follow that they are infringing the Diku group's copyrights by distributing the code. And since only the license gives them the right, I'll expect they'll be removing all Diku code from the site.
Justice said:
Unless Darien's license expressly grants the right to distribute, he is well within his rights to revoke it.
Let's try it again since I noticed some people around here seem to enjoy repeating themselves…
Sure he is.
08 Mar, 2007, Tyche wrote in the 43rd comment:
Cratylus said:
FUD.
Cratylus@http://dead-souls.net/articles/mudmagic.... said:
The kind readers of the mudconnect site have
updated my understanding of this, and gently redirected
my opinion of my action in this regard. I see that as
author, I do indeed have copyright that supercedes any
verbiage in GPL, and I now see the fragility of
Open Source, which depends on the continued trust of
authors' responsible exercise of copyright.
As a developer, I'd rather have a reputation
for responsible copyright behavior than keep my pride.
I am therefore stating here that my revocation of
Kyndig's right of distribution was made under erroneous
assumptions, and is no longer in force.
updated my understanding of this, and gently redirected
my opinion of my action in this regard. I see that as
author, I do indeed have copyright that supercedes any
verbiage in GPL, and I now see the fragility of
Open Source, which depends on the continued trust of
authors' responsible exercise of copyright.
As a developer, I'd rather have a reputation
for responsible copyright behavior than keep my pride.
I am therefore stating here that my revocation of
Kyndig's right of distribution was made under erroneous
assumptions, and is no longer in force.
I thought you'd be lecturing Darien on "responsible copyright behavior".
Try to be more consistent, if you wish to be taken seriously.
The stories on your web pages are fantastic and funny. They could be made much more believable if you actually quoted the responses made by your detractors. :-)
08 Mar, 2007, Cratylus wrote in the 44th comment:
Did you really think I meant "gently redirected my opinion of my action in this regard"
in a way other than sarcasm? Oh please tell me you did!
What I choose to do with my copyright is my business. And what Darien
chooses is his. Thanks for worrying about my consistency, I'll thank you
to keep your eye on your own.
-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
in a way other than sarcasm? Oh please tell me you did!
What I choose to do with my copyright is my business. And what Darien
chooses is his. Thanks for worrying about my consistency, I'll thank you
to keep your eye on your own.
-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
08 Mar, 2007, Guest wrote in the 45th comment:
Actually Tyche, I think people here would very much appreciate it if you were consistent. Either authors have the right to revoke distribution or they don't. There's no middle ground here. Darien demanded his code be removed from distribution. Kyndig refused. Darien took it to the next level, Kyndig complied. End of story. It doesn't matter why. It only matters that he had that right.
If Thoric came here and demanded the removal of all Smaug code ( and we could actually verify it was him mind you ) then we'd be obligated to remove it. End of story. And that would include derived works from Smaug since they too would no longer have legal standing for us to distribute here. Yes, including AFKMud. We would of course insist on verifying his identity before just yanking it all. Kyndig would not have had much problem verifying that Darien is who he claims to be.
Would I be pissed? Sure. I might even rant and rave about it for awhile. I'd almost certainly blog about it and raise hell. But that wouldn't change a damn thing. In the end I'd just take all of our additions to Smaug and force them into some other Merc derivative. The AFKMud name would live on. It would just assume a different ancestry. Unless of course the Merc guys came along and told me to get bent too. In which case there are public domain alternatives which mimic Merc closely enough to force into working. But I digress.
Bottom line: You're full of crap. Everyone can see that. Darien did not release his snippets to the public domain. He did not cede distribution rights to anyone who feels like it. His license grants no such authority, and as such Kyndig only had an implied non-exclusive license to distribute. Which was revoked. Done deal.
If Thoric came here and demanded the removal of all Smaug code ( and we could actually verify it was him mind you ) then we'd be obligated to remove it. End of story. And that would include derived works from Smaug since they too would no longer have legal standing for us to distribute here. Yes, including AFKMud. We would of course insist on verifying his identity before just yanking it all. Kyndig would not have had much problem verifying that Darien is who he claims to be.
Would I be pissed? Sure. I might even rant and rave about it for awhile. I'd almost certainly blog about it and raise hell. But that wouldn't change a damn thing. In the end I'd just take all of our additions to Smaug and force them into some other Merc derivative. The AFKMud name would live on. It would just assume a different ancestry. Unless of course the Merc guys came along and told me to get bent too. In which case there are public domain alternatives which mimic Merc closely enough to force into working. But I digress.
Bottom line: You're full of crap. Everyone can see that. Darien did not release his snippets to the public domain. He did not cede distribution rights to anyone who feels like it. His license grants no such authority, and as such Kyndig only had an implied non-exclusive license to distribute. Which was revoked. Done deal.
08 Mar, 2007, Fizban wrote in the 46th comment:
Quote
You also seem anti-mudmagic, and I can't figure out why you post, and release entire codebases to his site, still.
The reasoning is almost 100% because I care more about the existence of the codebase and helping people who post questions relatingto the codebase than I do about my personal distaste for Calvin and how he administers his site.
08 Mar, 2007, Fizban wrote in the 47th comment:
Quote
Derived works are a whole other section of licencing and legalities. Now if all they did was change the function-name and strip the credits, that would be another story all together, but you get my point.
Quote
Suppose Michael Chastain signs up for Mudbytes and you ban him because he violates your rules. He then retaliates by sending a DMCA request to you requesting that all Merc code be removed from the site. Of course you'd then be obligated to remove the entire Merc tree wouldn't you?
Apparently you didn't catch that…so there it is again. Derived works are not really another thing entirely, and someone can revoke the right to distribute a work derived from their own. Also Tyche does not seem to be saying you had no right, so much as saying you were not in the right. That's the difference between right and wrong in an ethical or rational sense, not whether you were legally in the right.
08 Mar, 2007, Guest wrote in the 48th comment:
And what of the ethical reasoning for Kyndig refusing to honor a copyright holder's wishes? That's not only legally wrong, it's morally wrong as well.
Try that with Microsoft and you won't survive the night when the lawsuit comes.
Try that with Microsoft and you won't survive the night when the lawsuit comes.
08 Mar, 2007, Omega wrote in the 49th comment:
i like the way you sound samson, and i really appreciate all the defense on this everyone.
I don't like being a target for doing what i felt was my right todo.
I don't like being a target for doing what i felt was my right todo.
08 Mar, 2007, Fizban wrote in the 50th comment:
Darien said:
I don't like being a target for doing what i felt was my right todo.
Anyone that posts or lives or does anything can and will be the target of criticism, it's part of life.
08 Mar, 2007, Cratylus wrote in the 51st comment:
Quote
Anyone that posts or lives or does anything can and will be the target of criticism, it's part of life.
Boy is that ever true. Becoming a codebase maintainer was a wake-up call
for me. It doesn't matter how kind, decent, etc you are, or the pureness of
heart from which your actions derive.
There will always be someone, sometimes groups, sniping from the sides, trying
to trip you up, trying to take you down.
In my opinion, those guys aren't the most upsetting thing. It is, after all, to be expected.
There are people who *enjoy* being nasty, *enjoy* the failure of others. It's only
natural you'll be a target if they notice you.
No, those guys are kind of like feral animals…there's only so much blame you
can assign them before you have to accept some responsibility for handling them
correctly.
What really upsets me are the people who don't like the flamers, who actually
agree with you, but say nothing. They stand by, watching you fight for what
they agree with, without a peep. *Those* people upset me.
-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
08 Mar, 2007, Omega wrote in the 52nd comment:
Yes, it is part of life. I agree, i get it everyday, and I deal with it at a much more personal level.
however, when it comes to something like this, there shouldn't be any criticism unless your personaly affected by what I did.
And unless Tyche is a big rom snippet user, i doubt he was personal affected by my choice.
however, when it comes to something like this, there shouldn't be any criticism unless your personaly affected by what I did.
And unless Tyche is a big rom snippet user, i doubt he was personal affected by my choice.
08 Mar, 2007, Guest wrote in the 53rd comment:
Fizban said:
Anyone that posts or lives or does anything can and will be the target of criticism, it's part of life.
Darien said:
I don't like being a target for doing what i felt was my right todo.
Anyone that posts or lives or does anything can and will be the target of criticism, it's part of life.
Amen to that. I've certainly been on the receiving end of such criticism myself over the years. But usually not directed toward my rights as the copyright holder :)
08 Mar, 2007, Fizban wrote in the 54th comment:
Darien said:
however, when it comes to something like this, there shouldn't be any criticism unless your personaly affected by what I did.
And unless Tyche is a big rom snippet user, i doubt he was personal affected by my choice.
And unless Tyche is a big rom snippet user, i doubt he was personal affected by my choice.
Everything that affects anyone in the MUD "community" invariably affects everyone else in the MUD "community". By this I mean you revoke ROM snippets, someone making a ROM MUD may now be less successful. Their lack of success may then cause their MUD to fail. A player that played their MUD may then never MUD again. That player never MUDding again is one less potential "customer" not only for that specific MUD, but all MUDs and therefore affects Tyche.
08 Mar, 2007, Guest wrote in the 55th comment:
Fizban,
This is why alternate resources exist. If someone doesn't like how mudmagic runs their site, they can find the same code elsewhere. Before Mudbytes, about the only alternatives available were scattered FTP sites, or non-mud related code submission sites. Since we opened, several others have too, and we welcome it. The competition is healthy and it provides the community plenty of choices for distribution channels. So places like mudmagic are no longer a effective monopoly on the community. People are realizing this too and beginning to make use of other sites. So it's not damaging to anyone if an author chooses to skip distributing through mudmagic for moral and/or legal protest reasons.
This is why alternate resources exist. If someone doesn't like how mudmagic runs their site, they can find the same code elsewhere. Before Mudbytes, about the only alternatives available were scattered FTP sites, or non-mud related code submission sites. Since we opened, several others have too, and we welcome it. The competition is healthy and it provides the community plenty of choices for distribution channels. So places like mudmagic are no longer a effective monopoly on the community. People are realizing this too and beginning to make use of other sites. So it's not damaging to anyone if an author chooses to skip distributing through mudmagic for moral and/or legal protest reasons.
08 Mar, 2007, Omega wrote in the 56th comment:
thats a pretty strung out way of looking at things.
if one of my snippets causes a mud to fail because someone cannot find it on mudmagic, then their mud deserves to fail. I'm sorry, but i'm not the best coder, and i don't claim to be, so if my snippets are holding the fabric of the mudding community together, then there is a bigger issue at hand.
In all seriousness though, my snippets are available on my own site, and mudbytes, if mudmagic users want me snippets, they can very easily bring up google, and search for rom code snippets, oddly enough, my snippet site crops up there, on the first or second page(last time i checked)
and they are pretty actively downloaded. So really, once again, may of affected afew people, they may of had to of learned how to code, or search google, or god-forbid, visit the competition of mudmagic.
sorry, but i fail to see how it affects them that badly that you would paint such a sad picture of the mudding community.
if a mud fails, and a players leaves the community, then most likely, he would of left anyways when the mud shutdown from any other cause.
hell, i've seen mudders leave mudding because they simply grow out of it. Or grow into Graphical MMO's.
If as you put it, a mud shuts down because he couldn't get one of my snippets, which would of drawn in players, then really, the mud was in a bad spot.
and it makes one less mud in the competition, and lets face it, we all want our muds to be successful, and the less crap muds, the more chance of players coming the way of the good muds.
now that statement will spark atleast 3 retorts from people, but look at it this way, i release my code so that coders have a chance to learn from what i've done. And what i've done is scower the internet searching for howto's, tutorials, examples, and forums with people searching todo what i'm trying todo, i've learned from actively doing my homework, and i release my snippets so that people can hopefuly find something that they've wanted to look into themselves.
But if they aren't doing the research, and the searching of the net, then they aren't going to find it.
anyways, i'm not sure what i was getting at, my Sgt just asked me questions and i'm too tired to re-read what i was saying. but i'm sure it had a point.
if one of my snippets causes a mud to fail because someone cannot find it on mudmagic, then their mud deserves to fail. I'm sorry, but i'm not the best coder, and i don't claim to be, so if my snippets are holding the fabric of the mudding community together, then there is a bigger issue at hand.
In all seriousness though, my snippets are available on my own site, and mudbytes, if mudmagic users want me snippets, they can very easily bring up google, and search for rom code snippets, oddly enough, my snippet site crops up there, on the first or second page(last time i checked)
and they are pretty actively downloaded. So really, once again, may of affected afew people, they may of had to of learned how to code, or search google, or god-forbid, visit the competition of mudmagic.
sorry, but i fail to see how it affects them that badly that you would paint such a sad picture of the mudding community.
if a mud fails, and a players leaves the community, then most likely, he would of left anyways when the mud shutdown from any other cause.
hell, i've seen mudders leave mudding because they simply grow out of it. Or grow into Graphical MMO's.
If as you put it, a mud shuts down because he couldn't get one of my snippets, which would of drawn in players, then really, the mud was in a bad spot.
and it makes one less mud in the competition, and lets face it, we all want our muds to be successful, and the less crap muds, the more chance of players coming the way of the good muds.
now that statement will spark atleast 3 retorts from people, but look at it this way, i release my code so that coders have a chance to learn from what i've done. And what i've done is scower the internet searching for howto's, tutorials, examples, and forums with people searching todo what i'm trying todo, i've learned from actively doing my homework, and i release my snippets so that people can hopefuly find something that they've wanted to look into themselves.
But if they aren't doing the research, and the searching of the net, then they aren't going to find it.
anyways, i'm not sure what i was getting at, my Sgt just asked me questions and i'm too tired to re-read what i was saying. but i'm sure it had a point.
08 Mar, 2007, Omega wrote in the 57th comment:
i really gotta type out my rants faster, and not get distracted by staff, oi, makes posting more difficult to keep up with you guys. :P
08 Mar, 2007, Fizban wrote in the 58th comment:
Faster…I'd suggest slower, and actually pausing for grammar and spelling…
08 Mar, 2007, Cratylus wrote in the 59th comment:
Fizban appears to be gunning for this month's Tyche Award for obnoxious pedantry.
-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
08 Mar, 2007, Fizban wrote in the 60th comment:
I've won the award on previous months as well, I keep them all on the wall.
FUD.
FUD
FUD
FUD
Here's a classic example of why people just let Tychery slide off them like
bat guano on a rainy day. You're a slippery sloper, Tyche, a Manichean
absolutist. You appear to believe that either things are black and white,
or they aren't, PERIOD.
So long as it suits you.
And AFAICT, what suits you is being able to harangue people into
handling copyright in a way that fits your high horse. I suggest
you slap yer own ass on that saddle, mate, and ride the high
horse into the sunset in search of IP nirvana. Yer copyright
heaven ain't here.
Because here on planet Non-OCD, people recognize distinctions
between justified expressions of protest and inveterate asshattery.
Guess which category you fit into?
Don't get me wrong. I'll defend your right to blah blah and
yakety schmakety, and in fact your redfaced blustering serves
a purpose convenient to me. By all means keep it up.
Because it just shows to go everyone here exactly the kind
of person who cares about such poinlessnessess.
Asshats.
Though really, it's be nicer if you could just discuss things like a normal person.
-Crat
PS Can't you just be normal? How hard is it? Just…BE NORMAL