I highly doubt he was worried about a DMCA threat. In fact that you would make such a threat only makes you look ignorant. If anything he decided not to get into an argument with someone whom he deemed to be ignorant and to have thrown baseless threats.

An author notes that a company or individual infringed his or her copyright in publishing material without receiving their permission first, paying a fee or crediting the source of the information (plagiarism). If the author cannot find an arrangement with the offender he can address a DMCA to the provider hosting the user website. This text contains several items to respond to. It can be sent by fax, ordinary postal mail or even put on a website at the disposal of the provider. Not all providers accept receipt of the DMCA as scanned and signed images by email. Here is the template of the DMCA request that the author has to fill in and send to the alleged infringer:

Calvin did not publish material without your permission, in fact you published it on his website with HIS permission. Also DMCA would not be valid for you giving permission to publish a text and then later revoking said right.

No he's perfectly within his rights to request that his code be removed from the website, and to revoke the right to publish any of his future works, but in no way does he have the "right" to revoke the right of Calvin to publish anything that he himself published on Calvin's site.



Of course being Rom related doesn't make that so, but him posting it as available for public download on a code repository does.

Mmmm…. no. I don't think you could make the case that distribution rights work this way. Darien, like others, in effect granted mudmagic.com a non-exclusive license to distribute the code. Mudmagic therefore only has the legal right to do so for as long as Darien's permission remains implicitly or explicitly granted. When Darien sent his email equivalent of a cease and desist order, that formally revoked permission for distribution of the code. That should have been the end of it. But it wasn't. Kyndig attempted to defy that order. The next logical step is a formal takedown notice, which the DMCA can be used to make happen. I've used this method myself. Kyndig and mudmagic.com may be willing to ignore the copyrights of an author, but his hosting provider would probably not have been so quick to risk a lawsuit, even under the conditions found here. The DMCA does not just cover publishing information on circumventing copy protection. That's just what it's become famous for.



I think you're confusing yourself. What you seem to be implying is that publishing the code to a repository places it in the public domain. This is not the case. You do not forfeit anything into the public domain unless it is explicitly stated so. Kyndig and mudmagic.com never had the right to distribute the code in the absence of Darien's non-exclusive license.

If you let the license Taliban draw you into a flame, then the terrorists win. Remember that.

-Crat

PS Do wtf you want with your code and disregard Tyche until he learns civility. Giving
him more ammo by defending yourself is not that helpful to you unless you're
using the debate to further your own ends. Contrariwise, if someone politely disagrees
and asks for clarification, that seems a good time to explain your motives, if you feel like it.

oddly enough, it worked, he didn't like the threat, and he did remove my stuff afterall.

I don't see why it is an issue for me to remove my code from his site, i didn't go after any of the muds that use my code, if i did, then thats where the issue would be, but no, i didn't, kydig chose to not list my site, which caused a large drop in new players btw, so i chose to remove my code from his site, which i retain the rights todo.

When he said no to removing them, it was like a even bigger slap to my face, so i threatened dcma action, and literaly minutes later, the code was removed from his site.

He's willing to tell the copyright holder no, until he's threatened.

Now, with that said, yeah, in some way shape or form, it was a licence issue tyche, and in some way shape or form, kyndig violated my rights until threatened.

Yeah, it was immature of me to remove my code from mudmagic, but it was more immature for him to remove my mud listing, block it from being able to be re-submitted, block/ban friends of mine that did nothing more then ask why their muds were taken off of the site.

Personaly, fuck kyndig, and fuck his site, i get to take the immature role on this one, because i was brought into a battle that wasn't mine, i consider myself a casualty of war, and i chose to go with the side that I deemed was in the right, thats why i'm here flaming kyndig, and not on mudmagic flaming samson.

I earned my right to it when he made a personal decision to fuck me based on my mud service provider, end of story there.

I'm an easy going person, i took it with stride when it all began, i asked for my site to be re-listed, he said no, i asked why, he didn't reply, i asked again, he didn't reply, i asked a third time, and he told me to shut up and stop asking. So i followed by asking for my code to be removed since he won't rehost my site link, he said no, i dropped the dcma bomb on him, and within minutes (more like an hour or so) my code was gone, i was expecting to be banned, which never happened, oddly enough, and since then i've carried on my marry way.

so yeah, when i choose to remove my code from a site after taking all the steps to keep relations, i feel that i have my right todo so.

Anyone who thinks otherwise, is an asshat.

And tyche, i don't care who uses my code, its where its distributed that matters, if the site openly insults me, i'm not going to want my copywritten code being posted there. And I HAVE A RIGHT to not have it posted there.

Its plain, its simple, and thats it.

And yeah, i'm, all fired up over this issue because i am still bitter about it.

If kyndig allowed me to repost my mud on his site, i'd probobly be more then happy to share my code with that community again, keeping in mind that I'm not getting fucked anymore by his personal issues.

If i'm not part of the fight, don't make me part of it. I do what i can in those instances to side with whom i feel is right, and frankly, its usualy the person who isn't fucking me based off of personal feelings.


Thank you, and have a nice day.

Neither me nor Tyche stated that removing material from his site was the wrong thing to do.We may have touched on the method, and in his case your spelling, but not that the action in itself was a poor one.



Incorrect, I don't find that to be immature. What I find to be immature is that you threatened with legal action that you would not likely have actually taken had he ignored it. If you can truthfully claim that you would have taken legal action, which I doubt, then I see nothing immature in the scenario.

On the other hand I do find it to be faultily flawed by backwards logic. Kyndig doesn't really benefit from code being in his depository at all. I suppose the closest comparison could be that more people may use his website because of it, but for the most part, removing code from the depository hurts the MudMagic users, but not MudMagic, nor Calvin.

I think Mudmagic's own actions hurt mudmagic users and visitors more than Darien having his code removed. Obviously it won't bother Kyndig one way or the other but he hasn't shown much regard for his users, his own customers, or the users and customers of any other site in the past either. I honestly think he just doesn't give a shit about anyone but Kyndig.

For the statement of the legal action, i was 50/50 on actualy following through with it, but i had the right to have my code removed so, nomatter what was said, he was in the wrong, and he forced me to move up to the next step.

as for hurting mudmagic's users, yeah, some of my code was over 1200 downloads, and i'm sure people miss it, but people can easily find all my code here, aswell as my new code, and even more to come with the eventual release of rocs, and other things.

Yeah, it may of hurt the users of mudmagic, but thats not my problem, his removal of my site because he had a fight with samson hurt my mud, my playerbase, and my feelings, yes, my feelings, because i was put into a situation that wasn't mine to be in.

I should of never been put in the position in the first place, hell, everyone that was hit by it shouldn't of been put in that position, it wasn't our fight to be in, i was minding my own business, enjoying my time there, helping where i could, posting my code, and then i a big slap for no reason, sorry, but for that, i deemed it worthy to pull my code.

if it hurt the users of mudmagic, then they can always come here and get it, or to my personal snippet site. which is posted with every message i send here, as it links to my website, and my website links to my snippets.

If calvin would get over his stupid fuss with samson, and unban people, and unblock ip's, and allow people to post their muds from the sites he banned, then frankly, this conversation wouldn't need to exist.

I can cohabitate solong as everyone follows the rules, which i tend todo, minus my vulgarity as of late, but getting me fired up does that.

in anycase, i do feel that mudmagic itself was hurt when i pulled my code, because allot of the rom-base there, isn't there anymore. they aren't here either, but they left mudmagic.

most of my code as stated above, was in the 1000+ download area, and growing daily, here, not so much, but i'm not complaining, it seemed that people wanted my code, and when it was nolonger there, allot of the people that used to be there, left.

Not my problem though.

and yeah, i agree completely with samson's statement, which was posted while i was ranting the above statement.

Oh, I entirely agree Samson, I wouldn't say that Darien removing code hurts users on a scale with Kyndig being an asshat. Just that it does indeed hurt the users of the site, not Kyndig himself.

i would think that when you hurt the users, you hurt the owner when it comes to websites.

less web-hits = less banner hits, less banner hits = less money.

though me pulling my code probobly didn't have that big of an effect, but i'm sure it did rattle afew cages.

but all an all, its all good.

Heh, the way I see it. The action does not hurt mud-magic. It protects you. If Kyndig continues to apply policies that drive people off, the reduction of content from people protecting themselves from him will hurt him. But in the end, it is only the natural result of such actions.

good to hear :) i appreciate the love justice :)

For me, this is exactly what I'm hoping people will see and do. Kyndig, and by extension, Mudmagic, are a detriment to the rights of developers. If he's willing to try and step all over the more well known people I can only imagine how he'd handle it if someone with no clout at all complained and was ignored.

Yet another statement that i agree with samson on, though i really wish he'd change his name to the Great Saiya Man…

and now back on topic, yeah, kyndig has been laying low as of late, i haven't seen him really around much, mainly keeping to himself, i think he's resting up for something.

like the battle when i release rocs and it winds up on mudmagic and i have them remove it :P cuz its a mudbytes exclusive :P hahahahahahaha :P

*note* this comment is for the straight patch or patched mudbases, i don't care if people do their own work and release it with rocs in it, just not the stuff i port/release here. :P i'm picky bout where its released :P

Sure he is. Kyndig pissed him off so he revoked Kyndig's distribution rights, and if you piss him off he'll revoke your distribution rights. And if someone downloads the code and pisses him off, he might revoke their right to prepare derivative works… And if someone pisses him off who happens to be using the code in their mud, he just might revoke their rights to perform and display his works.. This authors peculiar view on distribution rights can just as well be applied to the other copyrights he granted.



No that wasn't my point. My point was Russ Taylor could send you a DMCA request revoking Darien's right to run his ROM mud just because Darien pissed him off. That is not because Darien violated the ROM license, but because the author of ROM simply decided to be an asshat. Of course I'm just assuming Darien is running a ROM only because the code was ROM snippets (if not then substitute whatever other code base or persons that fit that example).

But if you don't like that example, then let's suppose Thoric just up and revokes all of the copyrights he granted you regarding Smaug; just you; not anyone else. And not because you violated any part of the Smaug license, but because you just pissed him off for some unspecified reason.

I would bet my left nut you'd be posting here and on every mud forum screaming about it. And no doubt there would be a great deal of sympathy, and much flamage directed at Thoric. I would imagine that many people would cease to use Smaug for fear they'd have the rug pulled out from under them because of the unreasonable, irrational and intemperate author who made promises/grants of copyrights but couldn't be trusted to keep them.

Oh I got more examples:

Suppose Michael Chastain signs up for Mudbytes and you ban him because he violates your rules. He then retaliates by sending a DMCA request to you requesting that all Merc code be removed from the site. Of course you'd then be obligated to remove the entire Merc tree wouldn't you?

Suppose KaVir logs into a Godwars mud and the admins ban him for violating their PK rules. He then retaliates by revoking their license to perform and display his works, and sends a takedown notice to the host.

Now I'm guessing that you trust and believe that neither Thoric, Furey or KaVir will do this to you or others.
Why is that?



Note that this ties into the "Virtual property and the Diku license" thread. On that thread you argue there is confusion with the license and possible loopholes, and Darien and others argue that lawyers ought to pick through that license and settle all the confusion once and for all. Now apply the same arguments to the hypothetical that Kyndig might well continue to distribute Darien's code, because he isn't violating the license and furthermore he gets a lawyer to look over the license and that lawyer says that quite clearly there are no distribution restrictions. Settled it once and for all doesn't he?! ;-)

Or not?

BTW, my answer to the thought over on that thread is instead of hiring lawyers to decide what you can or can't do with Diku is pretty pointless. What you can or can't do with Diku, is actually settled by emailing the authors and asking them. Because just like you argue here, it's their code and they can revoke the license if they decide you intend to subvert their terms.



Obviously they were granted unless Kyndig hacked into Darien's server and nicked the code. ;-)
Consider all the software you are mirroring here. The only way you can mirror each and every snippet, server or whatnot is because the authors have granted the rights to distribute their work.

For some reason this is somehow justified and lauded here because it's Kyndig. I say that's just emoting and not an argument. Because the argument doesn't suddenly change just because the names of the persons involve change.

Tyche, if any of those people chose to revoke distribution rights, then it's well within their right to do so. Having just checked the diku, merc, and smaug licenses, none of them grants the right to distribute. Unless Darien's license expressly grants the right to distribute, he is well within his rights to revoke it. You could say that by uploading the source to the server he granted the right. You could also say that when he emailed kyndig and requested it be removed that he revoked that right as well.

As for rights granted by those licenses, that's something else entirely.

I believe 3/4 of the admins here are banned. So it's not just one! When MudBytes first opened up, one of our more dedicated users went to his site and spammed some mudbytes adverts, and that's when we picked up the censor. It then happened again recently, unfortunately. I don't see the censor being lifted any time soon. Heh. And really, I don't care much. Considering if it wasn't for him, Samson and co. wouldn't have band together to make MudBytes, which then spawned QSF Portal. Silver lining and all that ;).

You also seem anti-mudmagic, and I can't figure out why you post, and release entire codebases to his site, still.

another good point davion.

as for tyche, i'm within my rights, nomatter how you swing it, what i did was a good thing, my threat to kyndig put him in a spot where he had a choice, to be fair and listen, or to be unfair, and not listen, the unfair and not listen part didn't bode well for him.

i followed all the diplomatic channels before i threatened him, and he had no right to tell me no to the removal of my source, no right at all.

its like if you asked for him to remove your source and he said, Fuck you Tyche, your a douche, what would you do? just simply forget that? take the insult an stride forth and not protect your works? NO, i think you would do something, threat, or take legal action, or both.

You say that what i did was wrong, or point out all these things from licences, but when it comes down to it, you'd do the same damned thing if you were put in the situation.

And as for the derived works crap, i wouldn't revoke someone's rights to release derived work from my released snippets, just the snippets I release, i like to control.

If someone downloads say, my set_area_affects code, and writes their own little version of it, or changes like, 20 lines of its source, thats their derived work, i won't touch it, even if they pissed me off, how could i? Derived works are a whole other section of licencing and legalities. Now if all they did was change the function-name and strip the credits, that would be another story all together, but you get my point.

The fact is tyche, i was put in a bad spot, as were many people, i chose to remove my code, as many other people have chosen todo. And nomatter how you slice it, it was a good decision.

Oh, and saying that i'd revoke people here is just nonsensical nonsense.

The only way i'd ever ask for my code to come down here is i were to get banned, blocked, and flamed.

Too many people here are good friends of mine, and too many of them are great co-workers.

many of the people here have helped/aided me over the years learning how to code. hell, even my mud
is hosted by one of them. I have a good standing, and i don't think that will end up changing.

unless ofcourse i turn into a prick and flame everyone on the board. Or, and haxor all their muds
and claim licence statements that are false.

paint bad pictures of people who are defending themselves.

come up with hypothetical situations that will never come to pass.

.

Nuff Said.

Slow down here. This is bull. The reason was specified. And it's Clarabell that's the "unreasonable, irrational and intemperate" one. How do you manage to twist things in your mind so Darien is the bad guy?

Your premise seems to be that, for example, Russ Taylor would not ask Kyndig to remove ROM from the download area if a similarly unfair banning though association happened to Russ, but I'm not convinced by your assertion it wouldn't happen. Seems to me you're the one making emotional arguments.

And speaking of emotional, if this scenario was inflicted on Gabrielle, Kyndig would be cinders, and MudMagic would melt from the heat of the flames. Brian is actually the even-tempered one, and even he can get testy on occasion (especially if your email is from AOL).