12 Apr, 2007, Metsuro wrote in the 101st comment:
Votes: 0
But what your saying is, as long as I am logged into a Diku mud using my character I cant sell my character because of the fact it is in the DIKU world at that moment. The data is loaded and I guess theres not much anyone can do?
12 Apr, 2007, Guest wrote in the 102nd comment:
Votes: 0
Some people are saying that. I'm not one of them. I would say since it's your character you can sell it to whoever is willing to pay. Even more so if you're just a player on the mud and not one of the owners since you cannot be held party to an agreement you didn't participate in.

It becomes slightly more complicated if you're one of the mud's owners. They are party to whatever agreement is in place at the time. I'd even find it difficult to bind staff hired later on to any such agreement. And I certainly don't believe that the license has any jurisdiction over your own content, even when created with the tools the codebase provides.
12 Apr, 2007, Conner wrote in the 103rd comment:
Votes: 0
Metsuro, it's really a very complicated issue because the Diku team used very loose wording and it's been debated repeatedly to death in several forums, including this one, with no real outcome to the debate. It's never been tested in any court as far as I know so there really is no definitive answer. Ultimately, unless it ever actually goes to a court of law somewhere, it comes down to how you decide to interpret the license and how strongly you feel about your public image within the mud community since they're far more likely than anyone else to be the ones condemning you if you decide to interpret the license in a way that's not in accord to their current general interpretation. Whether the character you are playing on my mud is in fact under the terms of the license and therefore unable to be sold is sort of irrelevant because as a player on my mud, you're not bound to the license and I'm (presumably) not able to be aware of what you may or may not have exchanged with someone when you gave them the name and password to that character. Now, if you're talking about the character which represents the primary admin (and "owner") of the mud in question, that might become a bit more grey because you are essentially selling the mud itself, if you've also ncluded the shell account in the sale, but even that would be grey at best because the license does not explicitly restrict that form of transfer of ownership, especially if you're only selling the character itself. Now, for the real kicker: I'm not a lawyer and neither are most of the folk involved in this debate, let alone a lawyer who practices IP law that would apply to this discussion, so all our opinions are just that, opinions. Take them all with the appropriate grain of salt. :wink:
12 Apr, 2007, KaVir wrote in the 104th comment:
Votes: 0
Metsuro said:
But what your saying is, as long as I am logged into a Diku mud using my character I cant sell my character because of the fact it is in the DIKU world at that moment. The data is loaded and I guess theres not much anyone can do?


There are two separate things we're talking about here. The first is the data file which contains your character, and you can do whatever you like with that without treading on toes. The second is the in-game representation of your character, which is part of the mud, and thus falls under any licences to which you've agreed (which could be "none" if you're just a player, and even if you're not we could easily spawn another 7 page thread about the wording, loopholes and possible interpretations of each licence, so to keep this short I'll assume you want to follow the stated intent of the Diku team).

To give a comparable example, here is a licence giving a specific individual permission to create a mud based on Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time novels: http://www.tymemud.com/help.php?display=...

One of the statements is "It is understood that this game is not operated for profit."

Supposing I were the one who obtained this permission, and decided to change my scratch-written mud (with no prior licensing restrictions) to a Wheel of Time theme. This would prevent me for operating the mud for profit, even though it was my mud.


To give another example, here is the AFKMud licence: http://www.smaugmuds.org/index.php?a=pag... - it includes clauses such as:

1. The credits in the initial login screen MUST be left intact. The information there is required to comply with the licenses of the codebases AFKMud is derived from. You may add your own credit information, ASCII art, or other information, but those credits must remain intact AND visible on a standard 24 line, 80 column telnet display.

This means that even if you create your own login screen from scratch, even though you are the owner of that login screen, while it is part of AFKMud it must retain the original credits. You can take your login screen to a scratch-written mud and use it without the credits, but when it's being used by an AFKMud derivative it must adhere to the licence conditions.

Another AFKMud clause is:

5. You may not block the AFKMud development servers from accessing your mud. These servers are currently located at: alsherok.net or arthmoor.com

This means you cannot utilise your "AFKMud server blocker" module - even if you wrote it from scratch. You can of course use that module on other muds, or even post it as a snippet, but you cannot use it within an AFKMud derivative…even though it's yours.

And of course there's the in-game benefit clause:

10. You may not accept monetary payment of any type in exchange for in-game benefits to users or staff. You may not accept hardware donations in exchange for in-game benefits to users or staff. You may not use your website as a way to obscure taking payments of any kind which result in in-game benefits for users or staff.

You can create your own "UberSword of Doom" that gives +100 hit/dam, and you can sell the data file for it - or even load it into your own scratch-build mud and sell it to the players. But if you use the data to generate an UberSword of Doom within an AFKMud and then sell that in-game representation to a player, you're going against clause 10 of the AFKMud licence.

The custom login screen, the AFKMud server-blocker and the UberSword of Doom all belong to the people who created them, but the AFKMud licence restricts their usage within an AFKMud derivative.

[EDIT: Updated defunct URL]
12 Apr, 2007, Metsuro wrote in the 105th comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
Metsuro said:
But what your saying is, as long as I am logged into a Diku mud using my character I cant sell my character because of the fact it is in the DIKU world at that moment. The data is loaded and I guess theres not much anyone can do?


There are two separate things we're talking about here. The first is the data file which contains your character, and you can do whatever you like with that without treading on toes. The second is the in-game representation of your character, which is part of the mud, and thus falls under any licences to which you've agreed (which could be "none" if you're just a player, and even if you're not we could easily spawn another 7 page thread about the wording, loopholes and possible interpretations of each licence, so to keep this short I'll assume you want to follow the stated intent of the Diku team).


What I was pointing out that its not two seperate things. The information in the data sheet is mine sure, but so is the one loaded up with the same data provided in that sheet. When you scan a piece of paper you make a copy of that paper, its not something different, its a copy. The mud does the same thing, its using the file, or "paper" and "copying" it into the mud to be used and displayed. So infact its one and the same object, as in its the same down to the last detail, only difference is one can be changed the other depends on the first to change it.
12 Apr, 2007, KaVir wrote in the 106th comment:
Votes: 0
Metsuro said:
What I was pointing out that its not two seperate things.


Yes, it is two separate things.

The in-game representation of a character is not a "copy" - it's part of the mud. The mud creates your character, using the data file to initialise some of its attributes, but other muds could do the same with the same data file - perhaps even resulting in different characters using the same data set. For example GodWars can load up Merc player files, but the same data file will produce different characters in each type of mud.
12 Apr, 2007, Guest wrote in the 107th comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
The custom login screen, the AFKMud server-blocker and the UberSword of Doom all belong to the people who created them, but the AFKMud licence restricts their usage within an AFKMud derivative.


It is worth noting that these three provisions were specifically spelled out in the license. In the Diku license, the credits clause only mentions the "login sequence", the "no profit" clause only specifies profiting from the MUD, and there is no "server blocker" clause.

I've also done some checking up on the specifics of clause 5 in the AFKMud license and have reached the conclusion that it most likely falls outside of the scope of a copyright license's ability to enforce. I don't remember exactly, but I think that's one of the things Tyche attacked it for in the past. So that clause may well get removed at some point. Which also leads to the same conclusion with regard to the Smaug license where this condition originated. It is unlikely Thoric and company would be able to enforce it either.
12 Apr, 2007, Scandum wrote in the 108th comment:
Votes: 0
Samson said:
Scandum, you should be careful. Someone might decide you need to be put in rehab. Afterall, anyone with the balls to speak out like that must be sick and need our help.

I keep telling myself the same thing, but my borderline sociopathic personality disorder occasionally disagrees. Freedom of speech isn't what it used to be either, even when it's as innocent as my pseudo-rebellious ramblings.

Samson said:
Not that I can see the logic in saying the Diku license wants people to act white.

The Diku license can only be used if you behave in the by the authors desired manner. So basically they want you to act Diku. Hence my juxtaposition.

Unfortunately authors of derivative work can't undiku the license (Well, not legally). As a side effect there's the (lowers voice to emulate a threatening tone) slippery slope effect, where derivative licenses become increasingly Diku-isher. The inevitable result of this slippery slope, somewhere in a distant far away future, is that you must submit your iris scan, criminal record, and drug test, to the license holder in order to use the derived software. We couldn't have a social predator running a MUD after all.
12 Apr, 2007, Metsuro wrote in the 109th comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
Metsuro said:
What I was pointing out that its not two seperate things.


Yes, it is two separate things.

The in-game representation of a character is not a "copy" - it's part of the mud. The mud creates your character, using the data file to initialise some of its attributes, but other muds could do the same with the same data file - perhaps even resulting in different characters using the same data set. For example GodWars can load up Merc player files, but the same data file will produce different characters in each type of mud.


It scans the file, does it not, going over line after line, only difference is that it knows what to do with each line, so instead of a pure file copy its allocating the data to where it goes, as its copying.
12 Apr, 2007, Guest wrote in the 110th comment:
Votes: 0
It could be said that the MUD is making a reproduction of your player file for its own use. Which presents some interesting things as far as copyright since reproducing a work is one of the exclusive rights a copyright holder has. When you begin looking at your data files which you have created in that light the issue gets FAR more complicated than it needs to.
12 Apr, 2007, KaVir wrote in the 111th comment:
Votes: 0
Metsuro said:
It scans the file, does it not, going over line after line,


The mud reads in the file, and uses the data it contains to initialise certain elements of the in-game representation of your character. This is not unlike other software applications - for example, Terragen can use data files to generate photorealistic landscape images and animations, but you can only do so on a non-profit basis unless you've purchased a commercial licence.
100.0/111