07 Jul, 2010, David Haley wrote in the 41st comment:
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If my request is so unreasonable, why even add any other user options at all then? Why let people enable a censor? Why give filtering options for the recent posts list? What's the point in doing all of that but not this? What's the difference I'm not seeing? How is this supposed to make sense to me?

Because the functional aspects of your problem can be solved trivially, but the filtering, for example, could not be worked around short of employing messy post-processing browser-side scripts. That is the simple difference that you are not seeing.

Note that if you want them to fix something or otherwise do you a service, it is usually a better social tactic to insult them a little less. Just sayin'.

You're asking other people to do work for you, and your only reason is: why not? The real question should be: why? You're asking other people to spend their time on you, and the best reason you've given so far might as well be that you prefer chocolate over vanilla. Yes, you are right that they probably could have done it – had they felt like it. But maybe they don't view it as a productive use of their time, and until a functional argument is brought up, I can't say I blame them.

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I would like to be able to know that when I'm using, posting, and contributing to this site that it isn't run by a couple of half-wits who would so readily and constantly snub such an innocuous change and all for no good reason. Using the alternative methods of viewing the forums that were suggested - all of that, aside from being methods I dislike anyways (as a matter of preference), just won't fix that kind of problem. As I've said, it just encourages them to keep doing nothing.

Ah, you see, it's about vindication after all. This isn't just about some chat box: this is about forcing change to prove that they're not a "couple of half-wits" who snub "innocuous change […] for no good reason", and making a principled argument that dropping the issue "encourages them to keep doing nothing".
07 Jul, 2010, Davion wrote in the 42nd comment:
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I'm sorry my reasons don't meet your standards.

Out of curiosity, is the front page your preference because you use the other widgets in the side bar?
07 Jul, 2010, Igabod wrote in the 43rd comment:
Votes: 0
Davion said:
I'm sorry my reasons don't meet your standards.

Out of curiosity, is the front page your preference because you use the other widgets in the side bar?


For me that's the main reason, but I also like to see the news updates. And the front page has more aesthetic appeal than the recent posts page does, even with the ichat eyesore.

Another option I thought up to at least somewhat solve this issue is to have the option to collapse the ichat window down to just a single line that tells you what it is. That way, it's still advertising but it is taking up less space. This isn't completely solving the problem but it's a big step toward a compromise that works at least a little for both parties.
07 Jul, 2010, Lobotomy wrote in the 44th comment:
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Davion said:
Out of curiosity, is the front page your preference because you use the other widgets in the side bar?

Somewhat, although I don't often use the other side widgets as much as I use the Recent Posts box. I'd probably check the Recent Code Comments box more often if I actually had a vested interest in it, such as actually having code uploaded to the repository and/or being interested in the progress of any of the code currently uploaded, but I don't. Having the site news updates right there is rather convenient, though. It's just getting the overall view of what's going on with the site on the front page (along with the formatting (style?) itself) that I prefer, I suppose.
07 Jul, 2010, Cratylus wrote in the 45th comment:
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1) Lobotomy's request is a reasonable one.

2) It's been handled a bit oddly and indirectly by MB.

3) This handling is protracting the argument, imo, because in the end Lobo appears to simply want a straight answer.

4) Davion should simply say, explicitly "No, Lobotomy, the box stays as it is. The end." since that's what he's hinting at anyway.

Lobo is using disproportionate rhetoric, but I sympathize. Things around here can
get really confusing and indirect and counterproductive due to poor handling of otherwise
reasonable matters.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
07 Jul, 2010, David Haley wrote in the 46th comment:
Votes: 0
Well, in fairness, wasn't post #2 a pretty clear answer? I suppose I am to blame for protracting the argument in this case, not Davion, because I was trying to understand it and solve the practical problem without involving Davion.
08 Jul, 2010, Brinson wrote in the 47th comment:
Votes: 0
I don't really have a dog in this race. Personally I think the vast majority of posters in this thread are behaving immaturely. I don't think post #2 was a clear answer, though. I also think it was kind of silly. The IMC box an advertisement? Doesn't seem like that's what it is at all.
08 Jul, 2010, Runter wrote in the 48th comment:
Votes: 0
Brinson said:
I don't really have a dog in this race. Personally I think the vast majority of posters in this thread are behaving immaturely. I don't think post #2 was a clear answer, though. I also think it was kind of silly. The IMC box an advertisement? Doesn't seem like that's what it is at all.


Why doesn't it seem like that is an advertisement? It seems to meet every criteria for one to me.
09 Jul, 2010, Igabod wrote in the 49th comment:
Votes: 0
I agree with Runter, it is an advertisement. However I believe that the admins of this site should care about what their frequent users want and don't want to see. Davion asked for our opinions when he wanted to put google ads in between each post on every thread. We voiced our opinion that we would rather them not be between each post and he put them at the top. I think a similar amount of cooperation and compromise is called for here.
09 Jul, 2010, Brinson wrote in the 50th comment:
Votes: 0
Runter said:
Brinson said:
I don't really have a dog in this race. Personally I think the vast majority of posters in this thread are behaving immaturely. I don't think post #2 was a clear answer, though. I also think it was kind of silly. The IMC box an advertisement? Doesn't seem like that's what it is at all.


Why doesn't it seem like that is an advertisement? It seems to meet every criteria for one to me.


Its not being paid for.
Its not designed to make money, or fund the site.
It doesn't seem to do anything to actively persuade people to use the service.
09 Jul, 2010, Brinson wrote in the 51st comment:
Votes: 0
Igabod said:
I agree with Runter, it is an advertisement. However I believe that the admins of this site should care about what their frequent users want and don't want to see. Davion asked for our opinions when he wanted to put google ads in between each post on every thread. We voiced our opinion that we would rather them not be between each post and he put them at the top. I think a similar amount of cooperation and compromise is called for here.


To be honest, I didn't even realize this site had google ads. I don't think I've used a browser without adblock for…years…
09 Jul, 2010, Igabod wrote in the 52nd comment:
Votes: 0
Brinson said:
Igabod said:
I agree with Runter, it is an advertisement. However I believe that the admins of this site should care about what their frequent users want and don't want to see. Davion asked for our opinions when he wanted to put google ads in between each post on every thread. We voiced our opinion that we would rather them not be between each post and he put them at the top. I think a similar amount of cooperation and compromise is called for here.


To be honest, I didn't even realize this site had google ads. I don't think I've used a browser without adblock for…years…


We dont anymore cause a few of us were trying to help make money for the site and we over-did it and davion lost the account or whatever.

And regarding your response about the ads, just because it's not paid for doesn't mean it's not an ad. Nor does the fact that it doesn't make money make it not an ad. It DOES bring about awareness of the fact that ichat exists, and an advertisement is designed merely to let you know a product, or in this case a service, exists. That very much qualifies it as an advertisement.
09 Jul, 2010, Brinson wrote in the 53rd comment:
Votes: 0
Igabod said:
And regarding your response about the ads, just because it's not paid for doesn't mean it's not an ad. Nor does the fact that it doesn't make money make it not an ad. It DOES bring about awareness of the fact that ichat exists, and an advertisement is designed merely to let you know a product, or in this case a service, exists. That very much qualifies it as an advertisement.


Yeah, but…the recent threads box brings awareness about the forum. The "Code Repository" button brings awareness about the Code Repository, The "Messenger" line changing when you have a message makes you aware of the messenger. However, I wouldn't say any of these are ads, because they are sit components. I've always considered the ichat just another site component like PMs or the Forums, rather than an outside service. Owned by the same people. Hosted the same place. There's a section of the site dedicated to it.
09 Jul, 2010, David Haley wrote in the 54th comment:
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Why does the distinction matter, exactly?
10 Jul, 2010, Igabod wrote in the 55th comment:
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The fact is that Davion and Kiasyn are claiming that ichat is NOT the same entity as mudbytes, they are two separate entities which happen to be run by the same people on the same server. So that is the factor that distinguishes it from the code repository and the pm and all of those.
10 Jul, 2010, David Haley wrote in the 56th comment:
Votes: 0
I meant the distinction between an "advertisement" and any broader form of attention-drawing.
10 Jul, 2010, Cratylus wrote in the 57th comment:
Votes: 0
David Haley said:
I meant the distinction between an "advertisement" and any broader form of attention-drawing.


Makes no difference. This is their house which we've broken into, not our house.

Just as a poll running three to one for optionality makes no difference.

Just like common sense and reasoned arguments make no difference.

Such things have no place in a community site, and you people need to start
shutting up and accepting that the will of Davion is the will of the community.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
10 Jul, 2010, Davion wrote in the 58th comment:
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10 Jul, 2010, Newt wrote in the 59th comment:
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heh, Crat Guevara! Nice.
01 Aug, 2011, Cratylus wrote in the 60th comment:
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I'm thinking that maybe if people aren't going to be talking on it except every few days, and it's 80% me, and when it's broken it takes a week to notice, and when it's fixed the logs don't work…maybe it's time to bid that box goodbye.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
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