28 Jun, 2009, Sandi wrote in the 142nd comment:
Happy people would still be sitting in trees, eating bananas.
28 Jun, 2009, aidil wrote in the 143rd comment:
Sandi said:
Happy people would still be sitting in trees, eating bananas.
:biggrin:
28 Jun, 2009, Ssolvarain wrote in the 144th comment:
Wouldn't that make Germany near-heaven with it's massive importation of bananas?
28 Jun, 2009, flumpy wrote in the 145th comment:
Teh best analogeous science fiction story for the ultimate outcome of any genetics type "programme" would be found in Doctor Who: Genesis of the Daleks. Remember this is science fiction folks ;)
It could be argued that the type of genetic experiments that Davros was performing was a type of accelerated eugenics, based on genetic (but ultimately racial) superiority whereby he selected only superior traits within the Kaled race.
Unfortunately the ultimate consequence of this was that he ended up with amorphous blobs, unable to propel themselves without assistance. These blobs (called Daleks) were given the same mobile device that Davros invented to propel himself about (he being crippled in some prior scientific experiment). These blobs believed themselves to be genetically superior to any form of life in the universe (including the Kaleds), and this led them to believe that this was ultimately dangerous to the Dalek race and should be exterminated.
I don't think anyone could seriously take the ultimate consequence of the Dalek race as a possible outcome for human based genetics, but I think it can point to the fact that no matter how hard you try, because you think you have superior genes to others you might believe you are indeed superior to them in all ways and that in its self could be dangerous.
No matter how much you want eugenics to benefit humanity, I think (as I've stated before) that 1) playing the odds with genetics is actually restricting the gene pool and 2) humans being humans, someone will take it upon themselves to make decisions that suite them.
Its just how we are :(
[edited to get my dr who facts correct]
It could be argued that the type of genetic experiments that Davros was performing was a type of accelerated eugenics, based on genetic (but ultimately racial) superiority whereby he selected only superior traits within the Kaled race.
Unfortunately the ultimate consequence of this was that he ended up with amorphous blobs, unable to propel themselves without assistance. These blobs (called Daleks) were given the same mobile device that Davros invented to propel himself about (he being crippled in some prior scientific experiment). These blobs believed themselves to be genetically superior to any form of life in the universe (including the Kaleds), and this led them to believe that this was ultimately dangerous to the Dalek race and should be exterminated.
I don't think anyone could seriously take the ultimate consequence of the Dalek race as a possible outcome for human based genetics, but I think it can point to the fact that no matter how hard you try, because you think you have superior genes to others you might believe you are indeed superior to them in all ways and that in its self could be dangerous.
No matter how much you want eugenics to benefit humanity, I think (as I've stated before) that 1) playing the odds with genetics is actually restricting the gene pool and 2) humans being humans, someone will take it upon themselves to make decisions that suite them.
Its just how we are :(
[edited to get my dr who facts correct]
28 Jun, 2009, aidil wrote in the 146th comment:
And third, you are playing with interactions between inherently chaotic systems. While it is quite possible to show, and use casuality still, it is practically impossible to accurately predict the implications of your interference.
28 Jun, 2009, Lyanic wrote in the 147th comment:
flumpy said:
Teh best analogeous science fiction story for the ultimate outcome of any genetics type "programme" would be found in Doctor Who: Genesis of the Daleks. Remember this is science fiction folks ;)
It could be argued that the type of genetic experiments that Davros was performing was a type of accelerated eugenics, based on genetic (but ultimately racial) superiority whereby he selected only superior traits within the Dalek race.
Unfortunately the ultimate consequence of this was that he ended up with amorphous blobs, unable to propel themselves without assistance. These blobs were given the same mobile device that Davros invented to propel himself about (he being crippled in some prior scientific experiment). These blobs believed themselves to be genetically superior to any form of life in the universe, and this led them to believe that this was ultimately dangerous to the Dalek race and should be exterminated.
It could be argued that the type of genetic experiments that Davros was performing was a type of accelerated eugenics, based on genetic (but ultimately racial) superiority whereby he selected only superior traits within the Dalek race.
Unfortunately the ultimate consequence of this was that he ended up with amorphous blobs, unable to propel themselves without assistance. These blobs were given the same mobile device that Davros invented to propel himself about (he being crippled in some prior scientific experiment). These blobs believed themselves to be genetically superior to any form of life in the universe, and this led them to believe that this was ultimately dangerous to the Dalek race and should be exterminated.
You want to talk Doctor Who, eh? You failed to mention that Davros also engineered the Daleks to remove all emotions but hate, which is a major reason why they were compelled to destroy all non-Daleks. That's a rather important detail.
28 Jun, 2009, flumpy wrote in the 148th comment:
Lyanic said:
You want to talk Doctor Who, eh? You failed to mention that Davros also engineered the Daleks to remove all emotions but hate, which is a major reason why they were compelled to destroy all non-Daleks. That's a rather important detail.
flumpy said:
Teh best analogeous science fiction story for the ultimate outcome of any genetics type "programme" would be found in Doctor Who: Genesis of the Daleks. Remember this is science fiction folks ;)
It could be argued that the type of genetic experiments that Davros was performing was a type of accelerated eugenics, based on genetic (but ultimately racial) superiority whereby he selected only superior traits within the Dalek race.
Unfortunately the ultimate consequence of this was that he ended up with amorphous blobs, unable to propel themselves without assistance. These blobs were given the same mobile device that Davros invented to propel himself about (he being crippled in some prior scientific experiment). These blobs believed themselves to be genetically superior to any form of life in the universe, and this led them to believe that this was ultimately dangerous to the Dalek race and should be exterminated.
It could be argued that the type of genetic experiments that Davros was performing was a type of accelerated eugenics, based on genetic (but ultimately racial) superiority whereby he selected only superior traits within the Dalek race.
Unfortunately the ultimate consequence of this was that he ended up with amorphous blobs, unable to propel themselves without assistance. These blobs were given the same mobile device that Davros invented to propel himself about (he being crippled in some prior scientific experiment). These blobs believed themselves to be genetically superior to any form of life in the universe, and this led them to believe that this was ultimately dangerous to the Dalek race and should be exterminated.
You want to talk Doctor Who, eh? You failed to mention that Davros also engineered the Daleks to remove all emotions but hate, which is a major reason why they were compelled to destroy all non-Daleks. That's a rather important detail.
He removed them because he thought that it was a weakness. Yes. Your point?
[edit: I'm not sure why he didnt remove hate, but it must have been because he thought it was a strength..]
[edit] 150 ;D
28 Jun, 2009, Lyanic wrote in the 149th comment:
flumpy said:
He removed them because he thought that it was a weakness. Yes. Your point?
[edit: I'm not sure why he didnt remove hate, but it must have been because he thought it was a strength..]
[edit: I'm not sure why he didnt remove hate, but it must have been because he thought it was a strength..]
All emotions except hate were removed because he wanted them to be "without pity or conscience" (from the Wikipedia entry), to better enable them to win the war they were caught up in. The entire example is one of genetic manipulation to create a better soldier, not necessarily a better person/race/etc. While the removal of their emotions may not have been what led the Daleks to believe themselves superior to all other races, it was the reason behind their choice to "EXTERMINATE!" That makes your initial analogy a bit slippery, as you seemed to imply a parallel could occur with genetic manipulation of humans - that those augmented would ultimately believe themselves to be superior and start a process of genocide. Albeit, the Nazis were a prime historical example of this still being possible with full capacity of emotion, there is also the fact that they were a minority and the rest of the world, still possessing pity and conscience, rose up to beat them into submission for it. Besides, people clearly don't need eugenics to think themselves superior to someone of another race/nationality/religion. I seriously don't think eugenics would ever have the slightest impact on that. If we're going to destroy ourselves, we'd do it regardless.
28 Jun, 2009, flumpy wrote in the 150th comment:
28 Jun, 2009, flumpy wrote in the 151st comment:
Lyanic said:
All emotions except hate were removed because he wanted them to be "without pity or conscience" (from the Wikipedia entry), to better enable them to win the war they were caught up in. The entire example is one of genetic manipulation to create a better soldier, not necessarily a better person/race/etc. While the removal of their emotions may not have been what led the Daleks to believe themselves superior to all other races, it was the reason behind their choice to "EXTERMINATE!" That makes your initial analogy a bit slippery, as you seemed to imply a parallel could occur with genetic manipulation of humans - that those augmented would ultimately believe themselves to be superior and start a process of genocide. Albeit, the Nazis were a prime historical example of this still being possible with full capacity of emotion, there is also the fact that they were a minority and the rest of the world, still possessing pity and conscience, rose up to beat them into submission for it. Besides, people clearly don't need eugenics to think themselves superior to someone of another race/nationality/religion. I seriously don't think eugenics would ever have the slightest impact on that. If we're going to destroy ourselves, we'd do it regardless.
flumpy said:
He removed them because he thought that it was a weakness. Yes. Your point?
[edit: I'm not sure why he didnt remove hate, but it must have been because he thought it was a strength..]
[edit: I'm not sure why he didnt remove hate, but it must have been because he thought it was a strength..]
All emotions except hate were removed because he wanted them to be "without pity or conscience" (from the Wikipedia entry), to better enable them to win the war they were caught up in. The entire example is one of genetic manipulation to create a better soldier, not necessarily a better person/race/etc. While the removal of their emotions may not have been what led the Daleks to believe themselves superior to all other races, it was the reason behind their choice to "EXTERMINATE!" That makes your initial analogy a bit slippery, as you seemed to imply a parallel could occur with genetic manipulation of humans - that those augmented would ultimately believe themselves to be superior and start a process of genocide. Albeit, the Nazis were a prime historical example of this still being possible with full capacity of emotion, there is also the fact that they were a minority and the rest of the world, still possessing pity and conscience, rose up to beat them into submission for it. Besides, people clearly don't need eugenics to think themselves superior to someone of another race/nationality/religion. I seriously don't think eugenics would ever have the slightest impact on that. If we're going to destroy ourselves, we'd do it regardless.
Fair enough.. but it still illustrates it can be used for badness. Which was my point really, it just accelerated badness and made the consequences worse.
28 Jun, 2009, Lyanic wrote in the 152nd comment:
flumpy said:
ROFL! I saw you with 150, too. I think Ssol deleted his post, dropping yours back to 149, then he reposted. In other words: he ninja'd the 150.
28 Jun, 2009, Chris Bailey wrote in the 153rd comment:
Slick one Ssol!
28 Jun, 2009, flumpy wrote in the 154th comment:
Sandi said:
Happy people would still be sitting in trees, eating bananas.
I would quite like that. Apart from it being a little boring.
Maybe if we could get the internet up there?
(two can play that game, i have now given 150 to an impartial 3rd party)
28 Jun, 2009, Runter wrote in the 155th comment:
This is a mud forum. Too much discussion of which post number it is and not enough about eugenics, evolution, etc.
28 Jun, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 156th comment:
When a joke stops being a joke and starts being a point of pride, you know that things are starting to degenerate… Let's hope we don't end up with people replying "first" to threads next. :rolleyes:
28 Jun, 2009, Runter wrote in the 157th comment:
David Haley said:
When a joke stops being a joke and starts being a point of pride, you know that things are starting to degenerate… Let's hope we don't end up with people replying "first" to threads next. :rolleyes:
Yeah, I'm going to start shooting for every prime numbered post.
28 Jun, 2009, Chris Bailey wrote in the 158th comment:
Interestingly enough, while Runter's last post might not have been on topic, the number of his post was! Gene ID 158 is cool :P
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez...
28 Jun, 2009, Lyanic wrote in the 159th comment:
Would you people stop deleting posts already!?
28 Jun, 2009, Ssolvarain wrote in the 160th comment:
Who?
Hmm… is there no "view single post" option?
<back on thread to.. er.. whatever>
Hmm… is there no "view single post" option?
<back on thread to.. er.. whatever>
Random Picks
It makes no sense to get worked up about potential people who are never even conceived. The average ejaculation contains hundreds of millions of spermatozoa. That means that even if an act of sex results in a conception, the same act of sex, given only one fertile egg, could have produced hundreds of millions of different people, only one of whom actually comes into being. Do you stay up late at night worrying about all the hundreds of millions of other people, any one of whom could have been born if your sperm hadn't fertilised the egg, but who will now never exist because it did? I can't say I'm particular troubled by that.
But if you do have the option to choose which one of those hundreds of millions of people actually comes into being, and the only criterion you can use is that you know some of them will end up partially sighted and others will not, I don't think it is unreasonable to make use of that criterion. Hundreds of millions of people aren't going to come into existence no matter what you do, it's just a question of how you choose which one does.
No, I worry about those that are actually there, not those that could have been but aren't.
At any rate, I think you are totally off with your idea that blind, or deaf or whatever disabled people are on average less happy then those who don't have such a disabillity.
You should not take your individual case as an indication for the average.
EDIT: We should instead use eugenics to end up with people incapable of being unhappy, much more efficient solution to the problem.