29 Jan, 2009, calylia wrote in the 21st comment:
Votes: 0
Zeno said:
I don't understand the appeal of MudMaker, it makes me sick.

Aside from paying for a service where you get restricted up the arse until they "vote" on what new "features" in the MUD code to put in, there also seems to be issues like…
Can't unsubscribe: http://www.mudmaker.com/forum/viewtopic....
If MudMaker goes, the MUDs go with it: http://www.mudmaker.com/forum/viewtopic....

Dozens more threads with issues.


I get a similar feeling: it's never the idea that makes things successful, it's the execution of it, and I agree with you, MudMaker's execution was fairly horrible.

Quote
The free trials now have a 500 room limit, for 2 hours per day. That's up from 100 rooms, 2 hours per week. We hope you enjoy this extended playing time!


that's not something that would get me excited.

A while ago, i was looking at mud hosting accounts, and they charged by the number of connections. A starter account would have up to 5 simultaneous connections, a medium was around 30-50, and a large would be 100+, etc. As your mud got more successful, your cost would go up as well, which is fair, since you're using up more resources. Limiting rooms and time seems like a poor way of showing off what services you could provide. The only benefit i could see from limiting rooms is that those 500 rooms would probably be the richest and most mprog laden rooms ever :) even if it's not planned, i'm sure they'd try out all these different things to test things out haha.
29 Jan, 2009, Zeno wrote in the 22nd comment:
Votes: 0
Well, don't forget free MUD hosting exists. :)
29 Jan, 2009, calylia wrote in the 23rd comment:
Votes: 0
Igabod said:
You can't really knock mudmaker too much though cause they are providing a service that allows non-coders to bring their ideas to life. Sure they charge an arm and a leg but it's still a really nifty idea. And if calylia decides to do something like this then I'd suggest reading the forums at mudmaker and avoiding the problems listed there. It would be nice to have several different places like this around the web.


Thanks for the link, Igabod! Yes, i was thinking of doing something like this :) I took a look at the site, and I feel like MudMaker's approach is more about making money rather than actually getting things done.

But since the topic came along, i'd like to ask: If you have a mud hosted right now, how much do you pay per month? I've seen tiny ones from $4/month, and i've seen huge ones …. but most of them average to around $8-10/month? mudmaker is $7.95/month, except the quality of service is -.- … is that considered too pricey?
29 Jan, 2009, calylia wrote in the 24th comment:
Votes: 0
Zeno said:
Well, don't forget free MUD hosting exists. :)


like, actual ones that don't go down on me every other day, or lock me out and steal my source? :) i've had my share of bad experiences haha
29 Jan, 2009, Zeno wrote in the 25th comment:
Votes: 0
calylia said:
Igabod said:
You can't really knock mudmaker too much though cause they are providing a service that allows non-coders to bring their ideas to life. Sure they charge an arm and a leg but it's still a really nifty idea. And if calylia decides to do something like this then I'd suggest reading the forums at mudmaker and avoiding the problems listed there. It would be nice to have several different places like this around the web.


Thanks for the link, Igabod! Yes, i was thinking of doing something like this :) I took a look at the site, and I feel like MudMaker's approach is more about making money rather than actually getting things done.

But since the topic came along, i'd like to ask: If you have a mud hosted right now, how much do you pay per month? I've seen tiny ones from $4/month, and i've seen huge ones …. but most of them average to around $8-10/month? mudmaker is $7.95/month, except the quality of service is -.- … is that considered too pricey?


Personally I think all MUD hosting is overpriced. MudMagic for example is $8/month and you get 400M quota. Think about that. Real hosts give you like 750 GB quota for $6/month (Siteground).

On the subject of free MUD hosts, ask other users who use my MUD host and see what they say. ;)
29 Jan, 2009, calylia wrote in the 26th comment:
Votes: 0
Sandi said:
HTTP (the world wide web) is a limited form of FTP - a specialised, one-way, file reader.

When you're "on" a web page, you're not really there, you're at home reading things you've downloaded from the web. Yes, you can make an interface to accept text, but it's a far cry from the direct connection you get with telnet.


Well, technically, you're also communicating to the server through click requests, or sending forms. But yes, there is no persistence without help, and the server cuts off your connection every time the page finishes loading. It's also tricky to get people to talk with each other (in perfect real time, or at least, as much real time as the internet will alow) using browser based methods, because as you say, web servers can't really "push" content to browsers. These are technological barriers that have well, technological solutions :) I won't get into them now. But I totally agree with you .. a browser based game will not have the same feel as a telnet server one would.

Does it make it any less of a MUD though?
29 Jan, 2009, calylia wrote in the 27th comment:
Votes: 0
Zeno said:
Personally I think all MUD hosting is overpriced. MudMagic for example is $8/month and you get 400M quota. Think about that. Real hosts give you like 750 GB quota for $6/month (Siteground).


That's one of the things that got me started thinking about web based rather than telnet based. I think one of the reasons why mud hosting is so overpriced is because of the security risks involved. Obviously we're not getting our own servers at that price, and they don't want users messing around and trying to hack into other accounts. On top of that, you're opening up ports on their server, running code that they only have your assurances that it'll be secure. With web hosting, they're using web server and database software that's been tested and proven by a lot more people every day than the codebases we work with …

the storage doesn't affect me that much … 750gb won't mean anything if i can't even use 100mb … what upsets me more is the number of connections and resources, like cpu/ram, that you can get for the same amount of money, or even less.


Quote
On the subject of free MUD hosts, ask other users who use my MUD host and see what they say. ;)

really? :) i'll have to take a look then :)
29 Jan, 2009, Orrin wrote in the 28th comment:
Votes: 0
Zeno said:
Personally I think all MUD hosting is overpriced. MudMagic for example is $8/month and you get 400M quota. Think about that. Real hosts give you like 750 GB quota for $6/month (Siteground).

On the subject of free MUD hosts, ask other users who use my MUD host and see what they say. ;)


I'm not sure where the market is for paid MUD hosting these days. If you just want to mess around with code or run a mud for a few friends then you should be fine with a free host and if you have a larger game you might as well go with a VPS anyway.

I also don't really see where the margin is for the MUD host providers. Whatever extra they may charge probably doesn't compensate for the additional support costs from offering MUD hosting compared to web hosting or unmanaged VPSs.

At one time I had thought about offering basic hosting as part of the mudgamers site. I was looking at something simple - a few hundred MB of space with no limits on bandwidth/CPU (subject to some kind of AUP) for around $5-$10/month, with a promotional perk on the site thrown in. I came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be worth the hassle given the sums involved and if I had a spare server I'd probably just offer hosting for free with no support.
29 Jan, 2009, Sandi wrote in the 29th comment:
Votes: 0
Igabod said:
speaking of gammon's area edit, is that modifiable? as in, if I added a new room flag to the code, could I modify gammon's area edit to include that new flag? If not then it really doesn't make things that much faster for a mud that has made any additions to the stock code.

Area Edit has a config file where you can add new flags. You can't add a new type of flag unless you're cool with Windows programming because there won't be a drop-down for it, but he's got the source available if you can hack it.
29 Jan, 2009, Sandi wrote in the 30th comment:
Votes: 0
calylia said:
I totally agree with you .. a browser based game will not have the same feel as a telnet server one would.

Does it make it any less of a MUD though?

You'll have to ask Old Man Bartle that - he owns the word "MUD". :biggrin:

Really though, I don't think it matters. It will be an on-line game, and it's success will depend not on how it's categorised by academics, but rather by whether or not it's fun for the players.


For free hosting, try: Internet Services Unlimited
29 Jan, 2009, Zeno wrote in the 31st comment:
Votes: 0
Sadly ISU only offers 50MB and that isn't even enough to host one port of my alpha MUD. And I have 3 ports.
29 Jan, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 32nd comment:
Votes: 0
I agree with Sandi: I think people obsess a little too much over things that aren't important in the end of the day. If you're trying to make a fun game, the interface for connecting to it is nothing more than a medium. The medium matters only to the extent that it enables (or makes more feasible) certain kinds of interaction that matter to how fun your game is.
29 Jan, 2009, Sandi wrote in the 33rd comment:
Votes: 0
Zeno said:
Sadly ISU only offers 50MB and that isn't even enough to host one port of my alpha MUD. And I have 3 ports.

Ouch! Bloat is a bugger, isn't it? I'm running three ROMs (two DeepMUD, one QuickMUD) and a MUX in 50Mb.
29 Jan, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 34th comment:
Votes: 0
Well, to be fair, you'd have to establish that apples were being compared to apples in terms of available world content etc. :smile:
29 Jan, 2009, Zeno wrote in the 35th comment:
Votes: 0
Sandi said:
Zeno said:
Sadly ISU only offers 50MB and that isn't even enough to host one port of my alpha MUD. And I have 3 ports.

Ouch! Bloat is a bugger, isn't it? I'm running three ROMs (two DeepMUD, one QuickMUD) and a MUX in 50Mb.

Areas = 8M
Src = 16M (6M of that is obj)
Pfiles = 30M
Watch files = 8M

I also don't delete logs very often (they come in handy with enforcement); why would I anyway with HDD space so plentiful in this era?

Bloated or not, 50M in 2009 doesn't seem acceptable. Even if it is free. The lowest price HDD I can find on Newegg is 80GB… ISU would need ~1600 free users before they fill up that small 80GB HDD. I appreciate the notion of a free host, but it's like giving a few crumbs to someone asking for food.
29 Jan, 2009, calylia wrote in the 36th comment:
Votes: 0
Sandi said:
Really though, I don't think it matters. It will be an on-line game, and it's success will depend not on how it's categorised by academics, but rather by whether or not it's fun for the players.


DavidHaley said:
I agree with Sandi: I think people obsess a little too much over things that aren't important in the end of the day. If you're trying to make a fun game, the interface for connecting to it is nothing more than a medium. The medium matters only to the extent that it enables (or makes more feasible) certain kinds of interaction that matter to how fun your game is.


I think i found the answer that I was looking for :) Thank you both for reminding me why i wanted to make a game in the first place!
30 Jan, 2009, Idealiad wrote in the 37th comment:
Votes: 0
DavidHaley said:
I agree with Sandi: I think people obsess a little too much over things that aren't important in the end of the day. If you're trying to make a fun game, the interface for connecting to it is nothing more than a medium. The medium matters only to the extent that it enables (or makes more feasible) certain kinds of interaction that matter to how fun your game is.


However, at the risk of oversimplifying things, keep in mind the popular phrase that the medium is the message.
30 Jan, 2009, calylia wrote in the 38th comment:
Votes: 0
Idealiad said:
DavidHaley said:
I agree with Sandi: I think people obsess a little too much over things that aren't important in the end of the day. If you're trying to make a fun game, the interface for connecting to it is nothing more than a medium. The medium matters only to the extent that it enables (or makes more feasible) certain kinds of interaction that matter to how fun your game is.


However, at the risk of oversimplifying things, keep in mind the popular phrase that the medium is the message.


This one went over my head … I don't suppose you could clarify for me :) From what I understand, Marshall McLuhan is saying that the medium (in this case, browser instead of telnet window) is equally significant, if not more so, than the content (in this case, an online game)? Am i getting it?
30 Jan, 2009, Sandi wrote in the 39th comment:
Votes: 0
Yes, but he said that 50 years ago when you could tell our parent's political affiliation from just "Ford or Chevy?". For the age group McLuhan was addressing, the first question was, "Who do you like?", implying that "You are what you listen to." So yes, the medium, coffee house vs coliseum, said a lot about each person's life style. SciFi, sure, but TV or books?

The difference, these days, is the mediums are changing faster than the content. I almost wonder (and I guess this is what David and I suggested), if things aren't reversed now?
30 Jan, 2009, Sandi wrote in the 40th comment:
Votes: 0
Zeno said:
Bloated or not, 50M in 2009 doesn't seem acceptable. Even if it is free. The lowest price HDD I can find on Newegg is 80GB… ISU would need ~1600 free users before they fill up that small 80GB HDD. I appreciate the notion of a free host, but it's like giving a few crumbs to someone asking for food.


Not wanting to get into a lengthy derailment, I still feel obliged to point out that you're running a charity, while Philippe is running a business. A business that allows him to indulge his hobby on the side, perhaps, but none the less the guy's got some overhead. Your principles would work fine at a free-food co-op, but not for a restaurant. We all know food's cheaper at the super, but we go out to eat, anyway. On ISU, you might only get 50Mb, but you also get three very experienced guys to help you out. This is why I recommend them. Depends entirely on one's needs. If you know how to cook, there's a lot you can do with free food. Figuratively speaking, though, some folks don't even have a stove.

That said, I also support and appreciate the efforts of everyone like you, offering what you can for free. That's the good side of the MUD community.
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