27 Nov, 2007, Asylumius wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
First off, I've locked the other rules thread. We'll continue here.

I've come up with a rough draft, first revision of some new rules. They ARE NOT in effect yet.

Discuss.

1. Do not spam. Messages should be posted only on the appropriate forum; cross posting between forums is not allowed. This includes traditional spam (advertisements) as well as excessive posting.

2. Flaming / trolling won't be tolerated. This includes deliberately posting offensive, inaccurate, or otherwise aimless statements to get attention, provoke an argument, or otherwise egg on other users.

3. Do not make personal attacks or baseless accusations against others users. If you disagree with the content of another user's post, focus on constructively addressing the matter and not posting meaningless libel.

4. Although MudBytes does not strictly outlaw swearing or crude language, please be civil. Please refrain from using language that is commonly considered to be racist, sexist, or degrading. Use your own good discretion so the Administrators don't have to.

5. You may not post or use as an attachment any copyrighted work that you do not own unless you have the permission of the copyright holder.

6. Advertising your MUD, website, or other MUD service / product is permissible on MudBytes, but should be limited to a single post in an appropriate forum or in your personal signature.

7. It is against our policy to post under somebody else's name. Your account is your own, do not give others access to it. Likewise, signing up with a popular user name from another prominent MUD website will result in a ban. Please do not impersonate people.

8. Do not post messages promoting or relating to illegal activities or materials, including but not limited to: warez, stolen source code, child porn, criminal “how to” materials, unauthorized music / videos.

9. MUD information should only be submitted to our MUD list by the owner of the MUD in question, or somebody authorized by that person. Only the user who submitted the MUD listing or a user authorized by that person can edit information or have it removed. No exceptions.

10. Code contributions to the Code Repository must a) adhere to any license(s) that govern it, b) be submitted by the copyright holder or an authorized agent of the copyright holder, c) not contain any illegal materials or malware.

11. Deliberately uploading a broken, empty, or unrelated file or archive to the repository in attempt to cover up or get rid of an existing contribution, even your own, will result in the loss of upload privileges.

12. Requests for content removal should be made via the PM ("Messenger") feature and made available to at least 2 Administrators or e-mail to MudBytes@MudBytes.net. Removal requests will ONLY be honored when made by the copyright holder / author. No exceptions.

13. The Administrators reserve the right to remove or lock any post, MUD listing, or file(s). Furthermore, the Administrators reserve the right to modify any post, MUD listing, or user signature if it is in breach of our policy in order to bring it into compliance with our policy. The author of any modified content will be notified if this becomes necessary.

14. The Administrators reserve the right to restrict a user's access to sections or all of MudBytes for any reason. If your right to participate in forum discussions is suspended, but you are allowed to utilize the rest of the site, you are expected to abide by this decision and are expected not to attempt to circumvent any restrictions placed on your account. Doing so will result in a permanent ban from all of MudBytes. Site traffic is monitored and any malicious or questionable activity will be investigated and dealt with accordingly.


(Various edits to fix spelling, grammar, etc)
27 Nov, 2007, Conner wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
Hope you don't mind if I open the discussion by simply commenting on each point rather than commenting on the whole…

Asylumius said:
1. Do not spam. Messages should be posted only on the appropriate forum; cross posting is not allowed.

Fair enough, though should this also cover the more typical "spam" definition? And, by cross posting, are we talking about jsut from other parts of this site or from other sites as well and does that extend to providing a link to related content elsewhere on this and/or other sites?

Asylumius said:
2. Flaming / trolling won't be tolerated. This includes deliberately posting offensive, inaccurate, or otherwise aimless statements to get attention, provoke an argument, or otherwise edge-on other users.

Good rule, but are you certain that 'edge-on' is what you meant to use? I would've thought 'egg on' would be the right phrase. *shrug*

Asylumius said:
3. Do not make personal attacks or baseless accusations against others users. If you disagree with the content of another user's post, focus on constructively addressing the matter and not posting meaningless libel.

Fair enough.

Asylumius said:
4. Although MudBytes does not strictly outlaw offensive of crude language, please be civil. This includes language that might be considered racist, sexist, or degrading. Use your own good discretion so the Administrators don't have to.

I really like this one as is with one minor correction, "offensive or crude". :wink:

Asylumius said:
5. You may not post or use as an attachment any copyrighted work that you do not own unless you have the permission of the copyright holder.

That works as is.

Asylumius said:
6. Advertising your MUD, website, or other service / product is permissible on MudBytes, but should be limited to a single post in an appropriate forum or in your personal signature.

Can we limit this somehow to "muds and mud-related services/products/sites" (or some other similar wording so that we're not giving free reign within the TOS to what the law (at least in most parts of the U.S.) considers spam?

Asylumius said:
7. It is against our policy to post under somebody else's name. Your account is your own, do not give others access to it. Likewise, signing up with a popular user name from another prominent MUD website will result in a ban. Please do not impersonate people.

Again, this one's good as it stands.

Asylumius said:
8. Do not post messages promoting or relating to illegal activities or materials, including but not limited to: warez, stolen source code, child porn, criminal “how to” materials, unauthorized music / videos, etc.

I would think that with the "but not limited to" the ", etc" is superfluous.

Asylumius said:
9. MUD information should only be submitted to our MUD list by the owner of the MUD in question, or somebody authorized by that person. Only the user who submits the MUD listing can edit information or have it removed. No exceptions.

Wait, I really hope this doesn't mean you're doing away with the existing guest editor for mud listings. :sad:
As it is, because Dragona submitted my mud's original listing here, without that feature I could not update the listing myself, and I'm the one who's far more likely to be updating the listing over time. :sad:
Maybe instead of getting rid of the existing feature, you could reword this rule slightly to either grandfather in listings that already have a guest admin/editor (whatever it's specifically called) or you could simply include them with the user who submits the listing, especially in those cases where an authorized party has submitted the listing but the owner is also a member…

Asylumius said:
10. Code contributions to the Code Repository must a) adhere to any license(s) that govern it, b) be submitted by the copyright holder or an authorized agent of the copyright holder, c) not contain any illegal materials or malware.

Fair enough.

Asylumius said:
11. Deliberately uploading a broken, empty, or unrelated file or archive to the repository in attempt to cover up or get rid of an existing contribution, even your own, will result in the loss of upload privileges.

Again, fair enough. Basically no sabotaging of the code repository.

Asylumius said:
12. Request for content removal will ONLY be honored when made IN WRITING by the copyright holder / author. No exceptions.

Are you saying that if we want to remove some or all of our own content, we need to snail mail you guys (what's your mailing/physical addresses again?) or does electronic writing qualify and can that take the form of an IM, PM, email, forum post, ichat, imctell… Does it need to be a formal DMCA take-down order?

Seriously:
  • How restrictive are you trying to make this?
  • Who specifically would such a request have to go to?
  • What methods of communication of the request/demand would you consider acceptable?


  • Asylumius said:
    13. The Administrators reserve the right to remove or lock any post, MUD listing, or file(s). Furthermore, the Administrators reserve the right to modify any post, MUD listing, or user signature if it is in breach of our policy in order to bring it into compliance with our policy. The author of any modified content will be notified if this becomes necessary.

    Good as it stands, I especially like the personal touch that you'll let the author in question know about it.

    Asylumius said:
    14. The Administrators reserve the right to restrict a user's access to certain parts or all of MudBytes for any reason. If your right to participate in forum discussions is suspended, but you are allowed to utilize the rest of the site, you are expected to abide by this decision and are expected not to attempt to circumvent any restrictions placed on your account. Doing so will result in a permanent ban from all of MudBytes. Site traffic is monitored and any malicious or questionable activity will be investigated and dealt with accordingly.

    This one's good as it stands, but would it be more appropriate to say, instead of "to restrict a user's access to certain parts or all of MudBytes", "to restrict a user's access from any or all of MudBytes"?

    Asylumius said:
    (Various edits to fix spelling, grammar, etc)

    Considering the length and verbage, you did pretty good, but you still missed a couple minor ones and since we're dealing with rules that every member will have to read and a membership made up of MUD Admins, builders, coders, and other spelling/grammar police, we might as well try to make it perfect. :wink:
    27 Nov, 2007, Asylumius wrote in the 3rd comment:
    Votes: 0
    After reading Conner's post, I've made a few miscellaneous spelling and phrasing tweaks.

    Conner said:
    Wait, I really hope this doesn't mean you're doing away with the existing guest editor for mud listings. :sad:
    As it is, because Dragona submitted my mud's original listing here, without that feature I could not update the listing myself, and I'm the one who's far more likely to be updating the listing over time. :sad:
    Maybe instead of getting rid of the existing feature, you could reword this rule slightly to either grandfather in listings that already have a guest admin/editor (whatever it's specifically called) or you could simply include them with the user who submits the listing, especially in those cases where an authorized party has submitted the listing but the owner is also a member…


    I actually had no clue this feature existed. Oops.

    Quote
    Are you saying that if we want to remove some or all of our own content, we need to snail mail you guys (what's your mailing/physical addresses again?) or does electronic writing qualify and can that take the form of an IM, PM, email, forum post, ichat, imctell… Does it need to be a formal DMCA take-down order?


    A PM will be fine for "in writing". Poorly worded. The point was to exclude things like, IMs and chats, etc. A PM from the owner will do. I just added the bit about two Admins.
    27 Nov, 2007, Conner wrote in the 4th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Looks like you've got my concerns covered, but of course we've got plenty of other members here besides me who haven't chimed up yet.
    Like the new title, btw. :lol: I'm sure lately it's feeling like that's your role around here, and, fwiw, I'm sorry that that's the case, but at least you're showing that the job's in capable hands. :smile:
    27 Nov, 2007, David Haley wrote in the 5th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Asylumius said:
    2. Flaming / trolling won't be tolerated. This includes deliberately posting offensive (…)

    (vs.)

    4. Although MudBytes does not strictly outlaw offensive or crude language,


    These two rules seem to contradict each other, superficially at least. Maybe it should be clarified what 'offensive' means in either case. I suspect the intent of the former is "don't piss people off", and the intent of the second is "we don't consider swearing per se to be an offense" (but swearing to offend/piss off is still not ok).

    Otherwise it generally looks ok to me.
    27 Nov, 2007, Fizban wrote in the 6th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Looks to me that something like:

    Shit, tried everything I can think of and this code issue is still bugging me.

    IS ok.

    DavidHaley, what fuck is wrong with you, are you just stupid, is that it?

    IS NOT.

    Oh, and because of what led to this whole thing, this isn't okay either.

    Of course you can't get that code to work, you're a female which sums exactly yourcapability when it comes to coding, now please get back in the kitchen and make me food.

    Is also not okay…, got that Scandum? Good.
    27 Nov, 2007, Asylumius wrote in the 7th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Asylumius <3 Fizban.

    I'm not going to write down a long list of adjectives to try and define what trolling or flaming is. We all know. If somebody isn't sure whether a post they want to make would be considered flaming / trolling, PM an Admin and ask before you make it.
    27 Nov, 2007, David Haley wrote in the 8th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Like I said, I think the intent is fairly clear; was just trying to point out a potential source of confusion since the words as written contradict each other. You're also establishing a nasty gray line for yourself, since I personally would rather not have a forum with swearing all over it. I imagine that others would actually find such swearing offensive, and now you have to distinguish between activity meant to offend and activity that wasn't. If I ask you to stop swearing and you continue, are you now engaging in activity to offend me?
    27 Nov, 2007, Asylumius wrote in the 9th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Swearing is fine. Using chat rooms, walking down the street, eating out, and talking to friends all usually expose us to some level of swearing. Swearing like a pirate to the point where your message is incoherent or just nasty would be considered excessive.

    If people have a big problem with this, we can consider either changing the rules or implementing a profanity filter.

    As far as actively trying to offend somebody by doing something that not everyone things is offensive, well.. people who post with cocky / condescending attitudes tend to annoy me, but I'd never get away with banning people over it.

    In the end though, it's up to the Administrators to decide when a person's behavior veers from constructive and breaks the rules. As vague as it sounds, most people know when they're crossing the line, being a dick, or just trying to put someone down.

    If somebody is acting like a moron and is completely oblivious to it, we do have this nifty little picture of a Troll we can put by their name as a sort of helping hand to stimulate their self-realization. We're here to help, after all. :wink:
    27 Nov, 2007, David Haley wrote in the 10th comment:
    Votes: 0
    I agree with everything you're saying. My only point was that if we're going to take the trouble to write down all these rules, they should be phrased as carefully as possible to be clear. The rules should more or less explain themselves; it shouldn't take this thread for the difference between "offensive behavior" and "offensive words" to be clear.

    For instance, it would probably be sufficient to change:

    Quote
    4. Although MudBytes does not strictly outlaw offensive or crude language, please be civil. Please refrain from using language that is commonly considered to be racist, sexist, or degrading. Use your own good discretion so the Administrators don't have to.

    to
    Quote
    4. Although MudBytes does not strictly outlaw swearing or crude language, please be civil. Please refrain from using language that is commonly considered to be racist, sexist, or degrading. Use your own good discretion so the Administrators don't have to.

    and now all ambiguity about that disappears.
    27 Nov, 2007, Asylumius wrote in the 11th comment:
    Votes: 0
    DavidHaley said:
    I agree with everything you're saying. My only point was that if we're going to take the trouble to write down all these rules, they should be phrased as carefully as possible to be clear. The rules should more or less explain themselves; it shouldn't take this thread for the difference between "offensive behavior" and "offensive words" to be clear.

    For instance, it would probably be sufficient to change:

    Quote
    4. Although MudBytes does not strictly outlaw offensive or crude language, please be civil. Please refrain from using language that is commonly considered to be racist, sexist, or degrading. Use your own good discretion so the Administrators don't have to.

    to
    Quote
    4. Although MudBytes does not strictly outlaw swearing or crude language, please be civil. Please refrain from using language that is commonly considered to be racist, sexist, or degrading. Use your own good discretion so the Administrators don't have to.

    and now all ambiguity about that disappears.


    Done.
    27 Nov, 2007, Hades_Kane wrote in the 12th comment:
    Votes: 0
    I think everything sounds good and reasonable.

    I think you have yourself well covered in the event of having to put on the Admin Hat, and as long as it is used according to these guidelines.

    I'm also happy to see an acceptable clarification of trolling/flaming added, because seriously, some people will have differing opinions on it.

    All in all, I'm pleased with them, and I feel a genuine care for your user base that this was open to discussion and that things were modified based on said discussion.

    I think the future of MudBytes is starting to look bright again.
    28 Nov, 2007, Kayle wrote in the 13th comment:
    Votes: 0
    I think.. You're all just thinking too much. :)
    28 Nov, 2007, David Haley wrote in the 14th comment:
    Votes: 0
    I think.. you missed a really huge problem that occurred not so long ago that might (probably would) have been averted had all this been more clear for all, participants and admins… :thinking:
    28 Nov, 2007, Guest wrote in the 15th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Quote
    1. Do not spam. Messages should be posted only on the appropriate forum; cross posting between forums is not allowed. This includes traditional spam (advertisements) as well as excessive posting.

    6. Advertising your MUD, website, or other service / product is permissible on MudBytes, but should be limited to a single post in an appropriate forum or in your personal signature.


    I think these rules are in direct conflict. Rule #1 specifically prohibits "spam" which is commonly referred to as unsolicited advertising. Yet, Rule #6 is leaving the door wide open for exactly that. Posting "a single post in an appropriate forum" for erectile dysfunction pills would still be within the guidelines. So I think it should be clarified that "other service / product" actually refers to MUD related services and products. Not that new aluminium siding business you just got started that needs a touch of viral marketing.
    28 Nov, 2007, Brinson wrote in the 16th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Asylumius said:
    8. Do not post messages promoting or relating to illegal activities or materials, including but not limited to: warez, stolen source code, child porn, criminal “how to” materials, unauthorized music / videos.


    Are you telling me that I spent all this time writing "A mudder's guide to smuggling heroine into the United States" and now I can't publish it?
    28 Nov, 2007, David Haley wrote in the 17th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Samson said:
    I think these rules are in direct conflict. Rule #1 specifically prohibits "spam" which is commonly referred to as unsolicited advertising. Yet, Rule #6 is leaving the door wide open for exactly that. (…) So I think it should be clarified that "other service / product" actually refers to MUD related services and products.

    Good point, Samson.



    (edited to add citation)
    28 Nov, 2007, Kayle wrote in the 18th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Oh, but David, I didn't miss anything, I was in the middle of it. I'm just so wasted right now that I just don't care. :D It feels good to come home after a hard days work, and kick back watch some movies and drink till I can't see straight anymore. One of life's greatest pleasures is taking pleasure in knowing you earned the right to relax. :D
    28 Nov, 2007, David Haley wrote in the 19th comment:
    Votes: 0
    I see…
    28 Nov, 2007, Conner wrote in the 20th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Asylumius said:
    If people have a big problem with this, we can consider either changing the rules or implementing a profanity filter.

    Um, isn't that the entire point of this thread? To consider how best to change the rules? (and, QSFP, which these forums use as their underpinnings, already has a profanity filter built into it.. albeit not the most ideal of profanity filters, but one that does exist and work.)

    Samson said:
    Quote
    1. Do not spam. Messages should be posted only on the appropriate forum; cross posting between forums is not allowed. This includes traditional spam (advertisements) as well as excessive posting.

    6. Advertising your MUD, website, or other service / product is permissible on MudBytes, but should be limited to a single post in an appropriate forum or in your personal signature.


    I think these rules are in direct conflict. Rule #1 specifically prohibits "spam" which is commonly referred to as unsolicited advertising. Yet, Rule #6 is leaving the door wide open for exactly that. Posting "a single post in an appropriate forum" for erectile dysfunction pills would still be within the guidelines. So I think it should be clarified that "other service / product" actually refers to MUD related services and products. Not that new aluminium siding business you just got started that needs a touch of viral marketing.

    I could've sworn I'd said something about that in my first reply to Asylumius… :sad:

    Kayle said:
    Oh, but David, I didn't miss anything, I was in the middle of it. I'm just so wasted right now that I just don't care. :D It feels good to come home after a hard days work, and kick back watch some movies and drink till I can't see straight anymore. One of life's greatest pleasures is taking pleasure in knowing you earned the right to relax. :D

    I'm terribly sorry to do this Kayle, but you need to enjoy all those lovely repasts while abstaining from posting because, Friends don't let friends drink and post.. an I consider myself your friend. :tongue:
    0.0/31