21 Aug, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 21st comment:
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So, if you're intent on making a graphical game, the question is…

Why would I play your game, when I can play this for free?

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That's the competition you have, and a dozen or more like it.
21 Aug, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 22nd comment:
Votes: 0
@quix: yep that is one of my point, going graphical for a mud is pretty worthless, free to play competition raised the bar way to high for hobbyist to compete on graphics to begin with.
21 Aug, 2013, draxen wrote in the 23rd comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
@quix: yep that is one of my point, going graphical for a mud is pretty worthless, free to play competition raised the bar way to high for hobbyist to compete on graphics to begin with.


I'm kind of obligated to disagree because that's what I'm attempting to do :)

The way I see it, I agree that I'm unable to compete with the big boys but then I'm not trying to.
In my opinion MUDs have a marketing problem. The perception by the general public is that they are boring or too difficult because they are text only.
My aim is only to attempt to reduce that initial barrier by providing just enough graphics so as not to alienate those types of players.
As a bonus I'm also trying to remove the need for a telnet client which I believe is another barrier for entry. I'm not trying to replace the MUD text interface
(Players will be able to pick and choose which interface they wish to use). I'm simply trying a different marketing tactic :)

That's why I think Planzi's project is so good. It's tackling the same problems. Initial perception and barrier of entry.

EDIT: I've no idea how successful it will be though but it's fun to try!
21 Aug, 2013, KaVir wrote in the 24th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
So, if you're intent on making a graphical game, the question is…

Why would I play your game, when I can play this for free?

KaVir said:
It's not about what other genres are doing, it's about making the most of the tools available. A well-designed mud should have an intuitive and user-friendly interface, and certain aspects of an interface can be better represented through graphics than through text - a gauge is easier to read than a prompt, a graphical map is easier to understand than an ASCII map, and so on. And for blind players in particular, sounds can go a long way towards making the game more accessable.
21 Aug, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 25th comment:
Votes: 0
> a gauge is easier to read than a prompt

I vehemently disagree…A number or a % is way easier to read. Gauges are totally innacurate (you make a guess, you dont actually know exactly where you are at) and hard to follow.
I made some in zmud back in the days, (sheesh I just had to check to see I still have them, tells you how useful they are…) I realized I was NEVER looking at them. Making the numeric prompt colorful depending on the % on the other hand was way more noticeable.
I find it very anti ergonomic when playing a text game to have to look something else (and somehwere else) than text for info.

Gauge can be a gameplay element (actually removing precise info) but not really easier to read (precisely because you dont read them as a matter of fact, you look at them then need to interpret the result)
21 Aug, 2013, Ssolvarain wrote in the 26th comment:
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Why can't a graphical bar also have a numeric overlay?

Is that against your religion?
21 Aug, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 27th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
So, if you're intent on making a graphical game, the question is…

Why would I play your game, when I can play this for free?



That's the competition you have, and a dozen or more like it.


You're assuming many things. And the way you ask the question implies you want the answer to be: let's do nothing. You can always ask a question that will yield this answer.

Here are some real questions I have been working from:

Why do these games have more players than all MUDs combined, when even the most vanilla MUD can drive the same UI and create a game that is 100x more engaging:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lord-of-...

http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/
21 Aug, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 28th comment:
Votes: 0
>Why do these games have more players than all MUDs combined, when even the most vanilla MUD can drive the same UI and create a game that is 100x more engaging:

Cause most people loves shiiiiiny..

"I download and play tons of RPGs, but this one has really raised the bar for gameplay and visuals."

>Why can't a graphical bar also have a numeric overlay?

Makes the graphical bar redondant, same info in two different ways in the same place. Distracting at best. Brains has now a filter to do to get the info.

I am pretty much an oldschool player though. Either do one or the other, not a bastardized game.
22 Aug, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 29th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
>
Makes the graphical bar redondant, same info in two different ways in the same place. Distracting at best. Brains has now a filter to do to get the info.


Hmm, actually, this is a pretty clear case of image and number working best in concert. Image is immediate. If your red bar drops half-way, your brain will know before you do that something needs your attention. Then, if you need to look closer, you can find out *exactly* what happened.

To argue against any kind of gauge is reductive and silly. If this argument had any kind of merit, we'd be happy using traffic lights where an odd number meant 'stop' and an even number 'go'.
22 Aug, 2013, draxen wrote in the 30th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
Cause most people loves shiiiiiny..


Like it or not, the general public are turned off by text only game interfaces.
Kavirs suggestion is a good one but I think that the requirement of downloading a client is still a problem.
I firmly believe the trick is in providing just enough bling so as not to alienate newcomers.
22 Aug, 2013, Hades_Kane wrote in the 31st comment:
Votes: 0
Just in general on text vs. graphics, this is my two cents as both a developer and a player…

I prefer text strongly over graphics. To me, that's part of the "charm" of a MUD. If I were going to play a graphical game, it's not likely to be something close to a MUD, either. I've never played an MMO, and short of a few potential, very unlikely themes, I would be unlikely to.

The DayZ mod game thing looks pretty cool, I think I would check that out if I wasn't running an 8 year old system (one that I've been able to upgrade well enough over the years to where I can play Fallout: New Vegas with no problems, at least).

I wouldn't be -against- adding graphical elements to my game, particularly in the vein of status bars, maps, etc., but those things would need to be optional of course (all of this being possible with KaVir's snippet, which I do have installed for the MSSP, unicode support, and expanded colors). However, I feel like my time would be better devoted to improving OLC, adding in new features, coding skills, making new areas, or creating new quests, as those are the meat and potatoes of the game, graphical elements are just peripheral bells and whistles, and no matter how much you dress up a game with those, if it doesn't have a solid core, it's still a crappy MUD. I know there are plenty of people out there that would prefer a crappy, semi-graphical game to an extremely well crafted text based game, but that's not really my "target" anyway.

I always suspect that End of Time will be a niche within a niche, no matter how much we have our game approachable and accessible by people who aren't familiar with old console RPGs.

If I felt like the game was to the point where there wasn't enough meat or potatoes left to add to the game, I would probably be more likely to want to spend the time adding the graphics in, but I also suspect I'll never be -that- satisfied with our content. No matter how much we add, I'm always feeling like we are one or two additional systems from finally having enough for players to do to keep themselves busy and having fun aside from just leveling. Two or three systems later, I'm saying the same thing.

If a player or another staff member setup the remainder of what was necessary on their end to finish up a plugin for EoT graphics, I'd officially support the hell out of it, mind you.

Eventually, full support for sound to further aid blind players will become a priority, along with a stripped down (vital info only) type of configuration option to help screen readers only pass the information that is crucial. Seeing a mob miss striking you or your group member dodging a hit is relatively inconsequential information.

/rant
22 Aug, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 32nd comment:
Votes: 0
plamzi said:
If your red bar drops half-way, your brain will know before you do that something needs your attention.


As I said: red text raise the attention. You have the number but in red. Only one look.

>Like it or not, the general public are turned off by text only game interfaces.

I did not say I did not like it to begin with. And I do not care about the general public as well. Sure getting them is great as more people will make the actual interesting player come because you have numbers though. But then you have to catter to the players that came for the graphics. Not really the one I want to listen to begin with.


>Seeing a mob miss striking you or your group member dodging a hit is relatively inconsequential information.

Indeed, that is a basic spam removal option in my mud. I went to the way of if having multiple attacks, grouping the messages as well. (quite tricky to do as each attack can kill the mob, so you need to store some fighting states before you create the mesage (number of attacks dealt, if th emob still alive or not)

Otherwise I agree your stance, I like my muds being pure text, and having so many ideas to implements that graphics is definitely never happening in mine :)
22 Aug, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 33rd comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
As I said: red text raise the attention. You have the number but in red. Only one look.


So, if red means health, you think your brain will register a red number changing from 760 to 360 before it registers a red line that suddenly drops to 1/2 of its full length?
22 Aug, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 34th comment:
Votes: 0
plamzi said:
So, if red means health, you think your brain will register a red number changing from 760 to 360 before it registers a red line that suddenly drops to 1/2 of its full length?


No health is green then yellow then red. The number itself change of color. If the number is red, it means that health is below 25% if yellow it is between 25 and 60, green otherwise. Because 600 can mean you are at full health when low level, but low health when high level.
That is a pretty common pattern to provide info.

You hardly see number in gauges, they are not there to provide precise info to begin with, but a feeling.

And blind people do not see gauges. I also try to make eveything lean enough so they can compete effectively. It is a text game from start to finish.
22 Aug, 2013, draxen wrote in the 35th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
>Like it or not, the general public are turned off by text only game interfaces.

I did not say I did not like it to begin with. And I do not care about the general public as well. Sure getting them is great as more people will make the actual interesting player come because you have numbers though. But then you have to catter to the players that came for the graphics. Not really the one I want to listen to begin with.


I think that's an interesting point of view to take.
If I'm creating a game then one of my primary goals is to get as many players to enjoy it as possible regardless of whether they are 'interesting' players or not.
But I can see your point of view also. You wish to make a game that *you* want to make. I can understand that.
22 Aug, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 36th comment:
Votes: 0
draxen said:
But I can see your point of view also. You wish to make a game that *you* want to make. I can understand that.


Creating a mud that can pay your mortage is pretty much a dream pipe nowadays, so creating a mud you would not want to play yourself ? I do not see the point.
22 Aug, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 37th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
If the number is red, it means that health is below 25% if yellow it is between 25 and 60, green otherwise.

That is a pretty common pattern to provide info.


I think if more MUDs were to follow the pattern you described, it would be an improvement. In reality, the de-facto standard is to have a jumping prompt where red is always health, blue is always mana, etc. It is introducing a needless additional barrier to another thousand entry barriers.

The best way to get the numbers to stay in one place and change colors in a prominent fashion: a UI :)

Rarva.Riendf said:
You hardly see number in gauges, they are not there to provide precise info to begin with, but a feeling.


In games where the actual value matters, gauges always have a number. There are games with only numbers on the hud (e. g. in many mobile games where screen real estate is precious) and games with only gauges. But most games have both because in them both the feeling and the information are important to convey.
22 Aug, 2013, draxen wrote in the 38th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
draxen said:
But I can see your point of view also. You wish to make a game that *you* want to make. I can understand that.


Creating a mud that can pay your mortage is pretty much a dream pipe nowadays, so creating a mud you would not want to play yourself ? I do not see the point.


Ah, I think you misunderstand. My project is an entirely free game, I'm just working on it for the fun of building it.
I definitely want to build a game that I want to play myself but one of my primary goals is to attract as many players as possible.
22 Aug, 2013, Arynth wrote in the 39th comment:
Votes: 0
I like the idea of graphics/OOB data for things that aren't as in character as other parts. Score page, skill levels, any information that you have a special command for, that just dumps data to the screen for people to check, and then have to recheck later. Health levels (at least exact numbers) are along those lines.

As for color changing prompts, I like that idea, but the only thing I have to ask is: what if one player wants those thresholds set differently? Going Rarva's route, the admin of the mud must either change it for everyone, or allow players to set their own personal thresholds, as well as personal colors (color blind people may like different colors for them). All doable, yes, but your basically embedding client-side display code in your server, which is usually not a good idea (though always had to be done before in the past with muds). Using a client with or without graphics, you can let the user decide colors and everything, and they can customize it to the limits of their client.
22 Aug, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 40th comment:
Votes: 0
@Draxen, then more power to you if you actually like the mix of graphics and text, you have a better chance at attracting players than me :)
20.0/52