15 Mar, 2013, salindor wrote in the 81st comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
Just think about it: those people are incompetent, yes. BUT the people that will interview then comes from where ? The same pool of incompetent people in the first place (but from another field, like human ressources).


It really sounds like your bitter instead of being able to evaluate going for one or not objectionally.

There are some degree holders who are arrogant to the point where they don't believe experience can make up for a piece of paper and as such there are some jobs you can't attain unless you have a piece of paper. I have heard some of the European Universities are corrupt and don't really care about education anymore (I heard this from someone who got a couple masters over there and found out their degrees weren't recognized in the states but then as I listened to what her classes were like I thought "Thank God").

Though there is one thing I think I can agree with Rarva on and that is the degree won't make you competent. It won't even make you a good programmer or at anything else for that matter. The only thing that will do that is practice. Lots and lots of practice.

Where we disagree is the value of taking 4-6 years of your life to study a subject and its value to the workplace. I know there are some jobs you can't get without one. Further I know (at least in the US) the courses that are taught are evaluated by a panel of those in the industry and academia for applicability and consistency and as such universities are constantly adjusting their programs to meet these needs. I also know most universities (again at least in the US) have job placement services that start as soon as sophomore year in college working on internships and such for the motivated college student. I also know many companies that hire new grads have relationships with universities they have had good luck with in the past.

Like doctors and programmers not all schools are created equal. Some are better than others. But even out of the best schools the incompetent can still slip through. However, that is from the hiring perspective. From an individual deciding to go or not, the question becomes do you see value in a regimented study of the subject? If the answer is no (as appears is Rarva's answer) then don't get one. Just don't be bitter when your judged for the lack of it. If you think the answer is yes, then go pursue one but make sure your practicing and getting internships.
15 Mar, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 82nd comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
It really sounds like your bitter instead of being able to evaluate going for one or not objectionally.


Law of average, there are as many incompetent in a field than in any other field. No bitterness here, it is just how the world works. And there are a lot more incompetent people than competent one.
By the way I have my 'engineer degree' and worked ten years in the field. I know what are the value of degree in most fields: none. What you would need to evaluate an applicant degree value is not the degree possession in itself but his marks in the perticular field you are hiring him (Electronics is not very useful if you are doing 3d programming, a little more if you are doing some autocad application) . Conveniently enough for their students, school wont provide it. You need to ask the applicant. (at least in Europe)

That is also why technical hiring should always involve some sort of technical interview. No necesserily a formal test (I can do complex stuff but being used to some wiokflow, I forgot how to write some compile script I hardly do anymore, as I don't start a new project every month).

I had some interviewers that made tests including question like the fizzbuzz test, just asking for pseudocode. Usually the people I had work with after that, very competent. Not some useless pointy hair boss. Unfortunately, those are hardly the first people you encounter. (Europe again, pretty screwed system where most jobs are only available through IT specialize 'service provider' like IBM CAP Gemini, Accenture and other overpaid middle men.
15 Mar, 2013, salindor wrote in the 83rd comment:
Votes: 0
Eck I only read the first paragraph of what you wrote with my first post. Don't know why it didn't show up when I went to reply.
15 Mar, 2013, Idealiad wrote in the 84th comment:
Votes: 0
It's funny, I've been thinking about a career change into programming, but I always assumed as a hobbyist I was not qualified. It's not that I've changed my opinion on that, but reading stuff like this does make a sort of convincing case that I'm more qualified than I thought :D.
15 Mar, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 85th comment:
Votes: 0
Idealiad said:
It's funny, I've been thinking about a career change into programming, but I always assumed as a hobbyist I was not qualified. It's not that I've changed my opinion on that, but reading stuff like this does make a sort of convincing case that I'm more qualified than I thought :D.


If you code regulary, you may be more qualified than some people I have seen in my school, where people actually asked me why the could not write on their floppy (with a nice 'cannot write on write protected floppy' popup on screen)
Well he was chinese..I was french, and it was english…but still…people in engineering not able to understand simple english words (and not even able to altavista it…)?
He got his degree just fine…

Sure as a hobbyist you wont be able to compete with some…but believe me..you surely outsmart a lot. Logical thinking is not that common.
15 Mar, 2013, salindor wrote in the 86th comment:
Votes: 0
I see I think I was misreading what you were writing earlier. Its a bad habit of mine that I am continuing trying to work on.

It sounds like what you are talking about is just sound hiring practice (and I don't care whether you are hiring Europe or the States). Many of the articles I have read on hiring suggest that is an excellent approach. I have seen people who used to be good programmers wither and die because when they were promoted they decided not to maintain their programming skill. Yet these same people remember when they used to be able to code and they think they still have it like a body builder who stops lifting for a couple years then returns to the gym believing they can still lift 300 lbs.

If I made it sound like I think a degree is a end-all be-all then I apologize, I didn't mean that. Just two people being equal (same years of experience, same talent, same motivation) except for one has a degree and one doesn't– the one with a degree has a strong advantage over the one without. Or course, in the end no two people are that close to being equal. I have friends who are superb programmers who never got a CS degree and I would definitely want on my team because I know they are talented and can program.

So I guess as an olive branch, I will say that when I am mentoring the college students I am always telling them to get interns or co-ops because the degree by itself isn't enough.

Salindor
15 Mar, 2013, salindor wrote in the 87th comment:
Votes: 0
Idealiad said:
It's funny, I've been thinking about a career change into programming, but I always assumed as a hobbyist I was not qualified. It's not that I've changed my opinion on that, but reading stuff like this does make a sort of convincing case that I'm more qualified than I thought :D.


I know I have only been around a short time, but I have to agree with Rarva on this. The best programmers are the ones who program as a hobby as well as for work and from looking at some of your posts I think you would do well. Some places will even pay for schooling as you work if your interested (though you would likely be bored for the first couple years).
19 Mar, 2013, Telgar wrote in the 88th comment:
Votes: 0
Idealiad said:
@Telgar, just out of curiosity, which solution was that? The first one I saw was correct.


for( int i=1; i<=100; ++i ){
bool modThree = ( i % 3 ? true : false );
bool modFive = ( i % 5 ? true : false );
if( !modThree && !modFive ){
print i;
}else{
if( modThree ) print "Fizz";
if( modFive ) print "Buzz";
}
}


The '== 0' is missing. Thus this sets modThree = true for 1,2, etc… so the program will print out

FizzBuzz
FizzBuzz
Buzz
FizzBuzz
Fizz


which is rather broken
20 Mar, 2013, Idealiad wrote in the 89th comment:
Votes: 0
I guess it depends on the language, but would '0' evaluate as false in the ternary expression anyway?

edit: ah OK, I got a chance to test this in C and you're right Telgar.
80.0/89