31 Jan, 2012, Cratylus wrote in the 61st comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
Quote
and decisions about which helmet is the uber helmet now fall directly on admins

Guess you have a big 'guidelines bport guide' to address all these case you should avoid. I see a lot of wasted time from builders otherwise, unless they stay conservative in their building.


If a lot of your creators spend a lot of their time coding THE uber <whatever> of <something> that beats ANY <whatevers> then sure, you probably will have a lot of mediation to do.

I don't find this to be a particularly common habit of creators, but perhaps on some muds it might be, and in those cases it would probably make things smoother to have some overall guidelines of how people should be good code citizens.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
31 Jan, 2012, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 62nd comment:
Votes: 0
Cratylus said:
If a lot of your creators spend a lot of their time coding THE uber <whatever> of <something> that beats ANY <whatevers> then sure, you probably will have a lot of mediation to do.

Guess the the LPMud builder community is very different than the Diku one I experienced (most creating an area want uber obect, or uber exp mo or whatever in them so people go in them.
But since the OP was updating code live, seems to me in the end, 99% is done on build port or am I mistaken ?
31 Jan, 2012, Kayle wrote in the 63rd comment:
Votes: 0
62 posts, I think it's time for me to chime in with something useless…

El Oh El.

Maybe you should just log in on Dead Souls and see what an LP actually is, and how the shit actually works before jumping to conclusions. I don't even run one, and I have mad respect for the flexibility of what they can do. And I didn't before I actually took the time to play around on Dead Souls. 'Course, then Crat fixed my favorite thing to do. Apparently he didn't like when I carried him around like an item.
31 Jan, 2012, plamzi wrote in the 64th comment:
Votes: 0
Kayle said:
62 posts, I think it's time for me to chime in with something useless…

El Oh El.

Maybe you should just log in on Dead Souls and see what an LP actually is, and how the shit actually works before jumping to conclusions. I don't even run one, and I have mad respect for the flexibility of what they can do. And I didn't before I actually took the time to play around on Dead Souls. 'Course, then Crat fixed my favorite thing to do. Apparently he didn't like when I carried him around like an item.


If I was looking to create a new MUD (not that anyone needs that) which had the meta-fictional premise that "Everyone's God", then I'd be a fool not to leverage what LP already offers. In fact, if the OP is shopping around for that kind of project, then I feel he should already be logged in to Dead Souls or some place similar.

But "Everyone's God" doesn't appeal to me, not as an admin, and definitely not as a player. Because of this very subjective PoV, the fact that you can code something in minutes to let you carry another player around in your inventory to me is nothing more than a quaint anecdote. In any project where this kind of flexibility is not useful to the game vision, it simply doesn't matter.

I completely understand why one would enjoy running a server where everyone is auto-immo'ed and left to play with some very powerful world creation tools. But it's not my cup of tea, and it seems to me an even smaller niche than the one all MUD's are already in.

The bottom line is I want to run a game for players, not for coders. The vast majority of players want to consume content, discover the rules/mechanics of the alternate reality they're in, and struggle to master them (not redefine them as they please). I'm sure that in the labs of Blizzard there's a WoW server where everyone can carry everyone else in their inventory. But I'm betting that server is not going to be released to the public because their target audience is not other developers.
31 Jan, 2012, Tomio wrote in the 65th comment:
Votes: 0
I get the feeling that he meant, "Log in to the Dead Souls DEMO to see how an LPmud functions from an admin's perspective" not "Dead Souls DEMO is a great mud".
31 Jan, 2012, Cratylus wrote in the 66th comment:
Votes: 0
I get the unfortunate feeling that there has been some "talking past each other" going on here.


plamzi said:
If I was looking to create a new MUD (not that anyone needs that) which had the meta-fictional premise that "Everyone's God", then I'd be a fool not to leverage what LP already offers. In fact, if the OP is shopping around for that kind of project, then I feel he should already be logged in to Dead Souls or some place similar.

But "Everyone's God" doesn't appeal to me, not as an admin, and definitely not as a player.


I think this is what most clearly illustrates the missed point.

LP doesn't imply that every player is a creator. Nor does it imply that every creator is an admin. Your assumptions (in what is implied in what you said) are just not correct.

plamzi said:
Because of this very subjective PoV, the fact that you can code something in minutes to let you carry another player around in your inventory to me is nothing more than a quaint anecdote. In any project where this kind of flexibility is not useful to the game vision, it simply doesn't matter.


Perfectly valid, I accept your preference, noting it for what it is, a preference.

plamzi said:
I completely understand why one would enjoy running a server where everyone is auto-immo'ed and left to play with some very powerful world creation tools. But it's not my cup of tea, and it seems to me an even smaller niche than the one all MUD's are already in.


Not only is it a niche among codebases, it's a niche even within LP muds. As far as I know, I run the only LP mud that does this. I'm not advocating that others do it. This is another example of mis(sed)communication.

plamzi said:
The bottom line is I want to run a game for players, not for coders. The vast majority of players want to consume content, discover the rules/mechanics of the alternate reality they're in, and struggle to master them (not redefine them as they please). I'm sure that in the labs of Blizzard there's a WoW server where everyone can carry everyone else in their inventory. But I'm betting that server is not going to be released to the public because their target audience is not other developers.


I think you've accidentally made a really sharp argument for me.

With LP, coders/creators are just another class/type of player, and "players" like having flexible powerful tools, and LP gives that to your "coder class".

Please understand that I am honestly trying to illuminate here, and not be argumentative. You really, really seem to have missed the value of LP I have been describing. It's not about uptime, everyone being a god, carrying people in your pocket. It goes to the point of being able to do <whatever> from that one terminal window, whether it's playing as a player or creating as a creator, and that as a creator, the tools are intensely great, because the whole point of an LP lib is to give you the tools you need to make the game (including a stable environment that isolates game errors from the program itself), rather than presenting you with a prefab game.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
31 Jan, 2012, Tricky wrote in the 67th comment:
Votes: 0
Plamzi: Have you actually read the manual I posted earlier? Or have you dismissed LPC as a concept long ago?

Tricky
01 Feb, 2012, plamzi wrote in the 68th comment:
Votes: 0
Cratylus said:
I think you've accidentally made a really sharp argument for me.

With LP, coders/creators are just another class/type of player, and "players" like having flexible powerful tools, and LP gives that to your "coder class".

Please understand that I am honestly trying to illuminate here, and not be argumentative. You really, really seem to have missed the value of LP I have been describing. It's not about uptime, everyone being a god, carrying people in your pocket. It goes to the point of being able to do <whatever> from that one terminal window, whether it's playing as a player or creating as a creator, and that as a creator, the tools are intensely great, because the whole point of an LP lib is to give you the tools you need to make the game (including a stable environment that isolates game errors from the program itself), rather than presenting you with a prefab game.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net


The way I see it, I wasn't making an argument for you. Rather, we're making the same argument, but we value things very differently. You love being able to paste code into your terminal and being able to offer players in-game abilities to modify the code. I simply don't see a use for that in the game I'm running. I do see some use in builders being able to modify the *world* and see/test their changes immediately. But I have never been approached by someone saying "I want to code for this game, but I want to be able to paste it into the same session where I'm playing mortal, and I want my changes to take effect immediately". That's just not something that has happened to me.

Also, I'd like to point out that in the way you present your value system, again and again you reveal that you believe innovation and greatness are somehow only possible within the paradigm of LPMud. That's all very normal when you work and think within a camp, but it is professedly untrue when you look at the range of games and codebases in existence today. Or do you really see things that way and are prepared to argue that some codebases result in formulaic games while yours produces nothing but greatness? If so, we'd need to see a lot more evidence.

Tricky said:
Plamzi: Have you actually read the manual I posted earlier? Or have you dismissed LPC as a concept long ago?
Tricky


I did browse through a lot of the manual and I don't recall dismissing anything. LPC seems like a very "nifty" scripting language for in-game creation. I'm not sure what more you expect me to say. That it's the answer to every question? That the vast majority of coders since the 1990's chose to work on a Diku-rivative did so because they were idiots? That everyone who continues to work on non-LPC games is a stubborn idiot? I know some people in your camp believe this (and they can feel free to continue to do so) but, really, isn't it time to grow up and recognize that different people have different needs and perspectives?
01 Feb, 2012, David Haley wrote in the 69th comment:
Votes: 0
plamzi said:
where I'm playing mortal,

Plamzi, you are insisting on this point far too much. The point is not that this is the great feature for LP. The point is that this kind of thing is possible, and as an administrator, you can choose to expose it to players or not.

plamzi said:
you reveal that you believe innovation and greatness are somehow only possible within the paradigm of LPMud

I see somebody saying that they have tools that they like and think are useful, not that they're the only tools one can use for success. I think you're feeling on the defensive for some reason, which I'm not sure of because Crat, at least, isn't going after you, he's just trying to explain things.
01 Feb, 2012, Cratylus wrote in the 70th comment:
Votes: 0
plamzi said:
The way I see it, I wasn't making an argument for you. Rather, we're making the same argument, but we value things very differently. You love being able to paste code into your terminal and being able to offer players in-game abilities to modify the code. I simply don't see a use for that in the game I'm running. I do see some use in builders being able to modify the *world* and see/test their changes immediately. But I have never been approached by someone saying "I want to code for this game, but I want to be able to paste it into the same session where I'm playing mortal, and I want my changes to take effect immediately". That's just not something that has happened to me.


This is progress. Thank you for appearing to recognize that you simply do not prefer LP. This is far better than accusing LP folks of being interested only in uptime epeen contests and trolling Diku.

plamzi said:
again and again you reveal that you believe innovation and greatness are somehow only possible within the paradigm of LPMud.


Quote where I say this, please. I really think you've got me confused with someone else.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
01 Feb, 2012, plamzi wrote in the 71st comment:
Votes: 0
Cratylus said:
plamzi said:
again and again you reveal that you believe innovation and greatness are somehow only possible within the paradigm of LPMud.


Quote where I say this, please. I really think you've got me confused with someone else.

Cratylus said:
…the tools are intensely great, because the whole point of an LP lib is to give you the tools you need to make the game (including a stable environment that isolates game errors from the program itself), rather than presenting you with a prefab game.


-Crat
http://lpmuds.net


Let's break it down together.

"The tools are intensely great" is a value judgment.

"the whole point of an LP lib is to give you the tools you need to make the game" (and other codebases don't?)

"including a stable environment" (and other codebases don't?)

"rather than presenting you with a prefab game" (implying that other codebases give you a cookie-cutter base, while LPMud doesn't)

You keep a civil tone, kudos for that. But some of your points are basically muted versions of quix's post, don't you think?

And in case you want to backpedal on these points as you did earlier, I'd be happy to agree with you that pretty much all popular codebases out there give you a stable environment and tools to make your own unique game. That's what codebases do.

And by the way, I'm not out to defend all things Diku or anything of the sort. If you want to paste code into your telnet session, and see it execute, then you should be looking at LPMud before a Diku-rivative, no question. But I think there's a huge difference in saying "Yes, this comes with stock LPMud" and some of the opinions we heard here, which, if not out to flatly insult the OP, try to patronize everyone outside their camp more or less implicitly.
01 Feb, 2012, Cratylus wrote in the 72nd comment:
Votes: 0
Ok, you might not have noticed that I am a forceful advocate of LPMuds. In case you did not notice that, I hereby come clean. I like 'em.

A good tip-off is the part where I run a site called "lpmuds.net" which I use as a sig in almost every post.

The quotes you posted do seem in line with my strong (but entirely platonic!) feelings for LP being really swell.

None of them come close to saying that

NOT ME said:
innovation and greatness are somehow only possible within the paradigm of LPMud.


I'll thank you to keep your words out of my mouth.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
01 Feb, 2012, Kayle wrote in the 73rd comment:
Votes: 0
plamzi said:
Kayle said:
62 posts, I think it's time for me to chime in with something useless…

El Oh El.

Maybe you should just log in on Dead Souls and see what an LP actually is, and how the shit actually works before jumping to conclusions. I don't even run one, and I have mad respect for the flexibility of what they can do. And I didn't before I actually took the time to play around on Dead Souls. 'Course, then Crat fixed my favorite thing to do. Apparently he didn't like when I carried him around like an item.


If I was looking to create a new MUD (not that anyone needs that) which had the meta-fictional premise that "Everyone's God", then I'd be a fool not to leverage what LP already offers. In fact, if the OP is shopping around for that kind of project, then I feel he should already be logged in to Dead Souls or some place similar.

But "Everyone's God" doesn't appeal to me, not as an admin, and definitely not as a player. Because of this very subjective PoV, the fact that you can code something in minutes to let you carry another player around in your inventory to me is nothing more than a quaint anecdote. In any project where this kind of flexibility is not useful to the game vision, it simply doesn't matter.

I completely understand why one would enjoy running a server where everyone is auto-immo'ed and left to play with some very powerful world creation tools. But it's not my cup of tea, and it seems to me an even smaller niche than the one all MUD's are already in.

The bottom line is I want to run a game for players, not for coders. The vast majority of players want to consume content, discover the rules/mechanics of the alternate reality they're in, and struggle to master them (not redefine them as they please). I'm sure that in the labs of Blizzard there's a WoW server where everyone can carry everyone else in their inventory. But I'm betting that server is not going to be released to the public because their target audience is not other developers.


Lol.

I'm beginning to think talking to you is an exercise in futility since you seem to want to pick one single thing out of a given post and run with it. But thanks for the laugh, it was worth actually reading something here for once.
01 Feb, 2012, Tyche wrote in the 74th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
I call something complex a functionality that needs to be plugged in many functions at once to actually work.
When you need to replace code in every object manipulation method, in update, in the saving character method, in some spells that affect objects etc…
Updating code dynamically to do all that in the right order without breaking anything in the process is a recipe for disaster. There is just no point.
give me an example of anything 'complex' that you can add dynamically. Everything that can be plugged in a single place is not something complex at all…


Tasks that ought to be simple are complex in DikuMud simply because it's not designed very well.

Here's something simple in ColdC. Let's say I want to add a new stat to the game called will.

> @add_var $npc,stat_will = 10;

Since all my characters and mobiles are descended from $npc they all now a will stat, that defaults to 10.
I don't have to modify a structure nor do I have to create database routines, since cold is implicitly persistent.
> @show me
Object: $character [3,346 bytes]
Parents: $admin, $programmer, $user
$npc variables matching "*":
stat_str: 20
stat_int: 13
stat_dex: 15
stat_will: 10
$user variables matching "*":
task_connections: #[[54965, $login_connection_23564]]


ColdC uses blackbox (private) inheritance so I need to define an accessor function.
I can invoke the program editor and write the code for it.

> @program $npc.will() +access=pub
– Programming public method $npc.will() –
arg @args;

if (args)
stat_will = args[1];
return will;
.


We don't need to edit huge modules like in Diku nor even a whole objects source file like in LPMud.
You create, delete or edit a single method on an object.

I can test the accessor code on myself, or in the context of a different object.
@eval me.will();
=> 10

@eval me.will(25);
=> 25

@eval me.will();
=> 25


Now that I have a will stat I can modify some of my spells to use it. Let's say I want to modify soem that
used to use the intelligence stat. I can search a particular objects variables and code, and its child
objects.

> @grep +d .int $spells
Searching for ".int"…
$spells.invisibility(): 13 and 19
$spells.detect_invisibility(): 1, 4, 5 and 7
$spells.charm(): 6, 13, and 17


I can @list and @program the .charm method on the $spells object, possibly replacing one of the .int checks
with a .will check. And yes, I'd go modify my character generation code and score command.

Note the entire architecture of the game, include having objects named $npc, $character, and $spells and their
relationships were programmed online. The only objects that a starting server has are two special objects
called $root and $sys. But like LPMud, Mush and MOO there are starter databases and libraries you can use
and borrow from.

I don't have to recompile and relink the entire server. I can program and test the code online, safely, and
in a social and cooperative in-game environment like some seem prefer.
01 Feb, 2012, donky wrote in the 75th comment:
Votes: 0
Tyche said:
Here's something simple in ColdC.

Why do you think ColdC never took off? The popularity of LP proves that the feature-set is both appealing and useful. However, I only ever see ColdC wheeled out as an example (and even then less so these days).
01 Feb, 2012, Runter wrote in the 76th comment:
Votes: 0
Plamzi said:
"The tools are intensely great" is a value judgment.

"the whole point of an LP lib is to give you the tools you need to make the game" (and other codebases don't?)


I think the tools LP offers are great. Opinion, yes, but so is the opinion that all codebases are equal in what they offer. Which is an opinion that relies on some severe misjudgments in what makes a codebase valuable. Those misjudgments run rampent in this community, though, so its no surprise.

Plamzi said:
"including a stable environment" (and other codebases don't?)

No, most muds do not provide a stable environment. Many muds, esp. mostly stock, in production muds are not stable. Or one that is resilient to even small changes to game logic without having to deal with high coupling in more in depth knowledge of [insert language, but usually C]. So to reiterate, the answer there is no. Probably the codebase you're using would be one of those that I consider to not be a stable development environment. And I'm not talking about uptime, since it seems to be dominating this thread.

Plamzi said:
"rather than presenting you with a prefab game" (implying that other codebases give you a cookie-cutter base, while LPMud doesn't)


Other games do give you a cookie cutter base. At the very least, most muds are difficult to adapt to other themes and gameplay concepts. It's why a lot of stock muds all play the same, feel the same, use the same mechanics. Not because they were the best choice.

P.S. First post from Singapore.
01 Feb, 2012, quixadhal wrote in the 77th comment:
Votes: 0
One of the misconceptions planzi seems to have is that because LpMUD allows any creator to be able to modify anything around them via writing their own code, that somehow this translates to every PLAYER having the same ability.

Players don't get to edit code. Now, Cratylus happens to have a test mud setup where everyone who logs in is made a creator, but that's not the case for the many running LpMUD game servers out there. Try one. There are several hundred up and running, a few have even been around since 1990 and still have players.

There's nothing preventing any LpMUD tem from building a player interface that makes it look and feel just like a DikuMUD. There's also nothing preventing a DikuMUD team from building a player interface that makes it look and feel just like an LpMUD. From the player's perspective, you shouldn't know or care what's under the hood.

The same can't be said for the creator/builder side of things. A DikuMUD is designed to place all coding in the driver executable. You can add a ruby/lua/python interpreter and allow it access to various "hooks", and write some pretty clever scripting… but that scripting can't change any basic feature of the game which is hard-coded into the driver.

This limits what your builders can do. It may not limit them in ways that matter to you, but if they suddenly have an idea for some brand new system, they can't just try building it in their private area to demonstrate what they mean. They have to pester someone with shell access, and that admin-level person will have to take the time to code it (or at least merge their done-but-untested code into the live codebase).

So, when the OP up there was saying they were unfamiliar with any codebase which allowed online coding of non-trivial systems, it was pointed out that LpMUD does allow this, and that it has done so for 20 years because that's how it was designed. Tyche has rightly pointed out that ColdC (and a few others) also share this concept of place all the game logic in softcode, where it can be changed by anyone with permission to do so, without needing to go outside the game environment.

So, despite this being a clear emacs vs. vi battle, the point stands uncontested. There are indeed codebases available which allow you to freely modify any game-related code online, without reboots, and without shell access. Some of them are even in use by currently running games, and contrary to some opinions, most of those games haven't devolved into dens of scum and villainy where every creator codes their own uber-areas and follow no theme or law but their own.

So, if you want to see an example of an LpMUD with players, which feels like a game, the two that come to the top of my mind are Discworld(telnet://discworld.starturtle.net:23) and BatMUD (telnet://bat.org:23). They are very different, but both built using LpMUD systems. Don't assume, go try playing one or both and see what they're like as a player.

If you want to see an example of how you can build stuff on an LpMUD, go to Dead Souls Dev (telnet://dead-souls.net:8000). You'll be made a creator and are welcome to go try and see how stuff works. Odds are, you'll have to do some reading before you can actually make anything that works, but if you really want to copy an existing apple and turn it into an orange, go for it!
01 Feb, 2012, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 78th comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
They have to pester someone with shell access, and that admin-level person will have to take the time to code it

Nope they can be given a developpement environent where they can test their code themselves. Then it can be merged to the game if the admin decide so. if he does not, too bad, it wont have made game port anyway. And then be available for everyone as 'base code'
01 Feb, 2012, Cratylus wrote in the 79th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
…blah…blah…blah…tldr..blah


The problem here, Quix, is that if you keep posting in this thread, it makes it harder for me to catch up to your post count.
01 Feb, 2012, David Haley wrote in the 80th comment:
Votes: 0
Boo ya?
60.0/111