07 Dec, 2011, LeMonseural wrote in the 1st comment:
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To get away from the basic werewolf, vampire, demon, etc - and doing something different than that of KaVir with the subclass system I was thinking of maybe allowing players to customize themselves into their own type creature. For example you could choose from Stone Skin, Bark Skin, Steel Skin, Spiked Skin, and Fur (These are just examples from the top of my head.)

While each type would increase resistance somewhat it would also have other effects such as reducing/improving speed, increasing/lowering damage, etc..) Spiked Skin for instance would do reflect damage back to the user (of course this would only be effective vs physical(melee) type characters.)

This way each individual player would be different. This would also go for various other elements that would flesh the character out more with hand, feet, head, back, and tail-types.

What do you all think of this type system - Also I am aware people would try to find an
optimal build but that exists in every game.
07 Dec, 2011, Kline wrote in the 2nd comment:
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[link=file]2808[/link]

My old GW, linked above, has such as system if you'd like to utilize/borrow/learn from it. Originally the entire MUD was stripped of all traditional "class" notions and given a system of "Power Blocks" similar to what you describe. Most of these were based on elemental ideas though (Fire, Ice, Earth, etc) and you were unable to have a block and its opposite (no Fire + Ice).

Most of them were reasonably balanced with each other, but the idea never really caught with the player base we had at the time when we implemented it and we ended up bringing back traditional classes in addition to the "build your own" system which was renamed "Apocryphic".

I still like the concept; just wish it had worked better for us at the time we tried to run with it. Maybe we needed more polish on how we implemented things or perhaps we just suffered from a crowd of players who "want something different, but still the same"; if that makes sense. Best of luck to you!
07 Dec, 2011, Lyanic wrote in the 3rd comment:
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A) It has been done and B) You addressed the primary issue with it - balance.

Don't let that discourage you, though. You can always find a new twist on any idea. How would selecting these different traits come together, "allowing players to customize themselves into their own type of creature"? Would they just name the custom creatures at the end of the process, with those being the class names?

Even the balance issue can be worked out. The trick is not trying to balance all possible builds against all other builds. It is to balance like build elements against each other - mathematically, if possible. If you work that out, the only issue you have to worry about is that of synergies amongst build elements.


Edit: Kline ninja'd both my points! :-p

Edit2: Kline, switch your MUD's IMC2 connection over to I3.
07 Dec, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 4th comment:
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Sounds pretty much like the Demon Form warps in God Wars II. Each character can customise their skin, head, arms, legs, wings, tail, etc, providing them with a mixture of cosmetics and mechanics to differentiate them from other demons.

You'll end up with some very inhuman-looking characters, but I guess you could call them aliens or superheroes or something else if you don't want to call them demons.
07 Dec, 2011, Kline wrote in the 5th comment:
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KaVir said:
Sounds pretty much like the Demon Form warps in God Wars II. Each character can customise their skin, head, arms, legs, wings, tail, etc, providing them with a mixture of cosmetics and mechanics to differentiate them from other demons.

You'll end up with some very inhuman-looking characters, but I guess you could call them aliens or superheroes or something else if you don't want to call them demons.


We actually had a similar warps system implemented by Kale since he was such as fan of your system; except warps were available to all players in addition to their normal class/skills. It was certainly funny to hear the whining when people would land a penalizing or useless warp that did nothing but make them look silly (feathers, covered in hair…).
07 Dec, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 6th comment:
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Kline said:
We actually had a similar warps system implemented by Kale since he was such as fan of your system; except warps were available to all players in addition to their normal class/skills. It was certainly funny to hear the whining when people would land a penalizing or useless warp that did nothing but make them look silly (feathers, covered in hair…).

I allow all the classes to customise themselves to some degree, but they're each handled separately to ensure they stick to their appropriate themes. Demons have the most flexibility, as I felt the concept could cover pretty much any sort of monstrous creature - but I wouldn't want to see vampires or werewolves covered in feathers!
07 Dec, 2011, LeMonseural wrote in the 7th comment:
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Reminds me of Dreams of Demise each class had it's own element so each class would be strong versus others and weak versus the rest, but not to where you couldn't beat an element you were weak against. I could implement it to where each one was an element and when you had maybe atleast 3 of 1 element that would decide your element.. Ie..Black Tentacles + Rotting Skin + Spiked Tail would classify you as a Dark Element..or Large White Feathery Wings + Halo + Prismatic Skin would give you a Holy Element.

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Sounds pretty much like the Demon Form warps in God Wars II. Each character can customise their skin, head, arms, legs, wings, tail, etc, providing them with a mixture of cosmetics and mechanics to differentiate them from other demons.


The definition of demon varies.. Vampires some call them blood sucking demons.. Although I am not to sure of the Demon Form on your mud, but depending on your choices you could call yourself whatever you wanted basically.

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Large White Feathery Wings + Halo + Prismatic Skin


Some could say that they are an angel picking those three and whatever other options that they would consider them being an angel type.

Also I wasn't going for classing depending on the parts that were chosen would give you a choice of skills that you could choose from. Having Spiked Skin could allow you to reflect damage back to the attacker or allow you to launch the spikes towards your enemy.


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A) It has been done and B) You addressed the primary issue with it - balance.

Alot of things have been so called done, it's they way you use it. Alot of things can be done differently. As for the balance issue that is with anything you decide to do, unless your making everything exactly the same.
07 Dec, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 8th comment:
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LeMonseural said:
The definition of demon varies.. Vampires some call them blood sucking demons.

Yeah, but they don't have feathers, beaks, scorpion-like tails, etc.

If you don't have any official class names then it's not really a problem - you just let players design their appearance (similar to the character creation in games like Champions Online). Then if they want to play a vampire they make themselves look human and add some fangs, while if they want to play a werewolf they add fur, claws and a canine head, and so on.

However I suspect you'll find most players end up looking like strange monsters, particularly if there are a lot of warps, and they're not purely cosmetic. That's certainly what happens with the demons in GW2 (click here for an example of demon warps).

That's fine when demons are just one of the classes, as they still have some sort of faction identify. But if there are no classes, just warps, you'll lose that sense of belonging that was so heavily tied into the PvP side of GodWars. I'm not saying you can't (or even shouldn't) do that, just that you should be aware it may have a strong impact on the feel of the gameplay.

Another option would be to have bloodlines similar to the clans and tribes in GW1. These could be enforced, like clan disciplines in GW1, so that the most powerful characters select their warps and these are then automatically passed on to those they induct - if I create a character that looks like a werewolf, all those I induct will also look like werewolves. Alternatively you could just provide incentives for people to band together with the same bloodline, or perhaps make it very difficult to start your own rather than joining an established one.

LeMonseural said:
Some could say that they are an angel picking those three and whatever other options that they would consider them being an angel type.

What if I pick three holy warps and three unholy warps? Would I become both a demon and angel?

As I said though, I suspect you'll find most people won't stick to a specific theme. I guess they would if each 'type' gave extra bonuses, but then you're basically back to a class system (just a bit looser than the traditional approach).
07 Dec, 2011, LeMonseural wrote in the 9th comment:
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What if I pick three holy warps and three unholy warps? Would I become both a demon and angel?


You would be whatever you wanted to call yourself as I said there won't be any set classes.

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However I suspect you'll find most players end up looking like strange monsters, particularly if there are a lot of warps, and they're not purely cosmetic.


Yup, they would pick which options/warps suited their playstyle

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Alternatively you could just provide incentives for people to band together with the same bloodline, or perhaps make it very difficult to start your own rather than joining an established one.


Now that is a great idea! Various bloodlines could be implemented and each one would give something to those of the bloodline. With each bloodline being different.
07 Dec, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 10th comment:
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LeMonseural said:
Various bloodlines could be implemented and each one would give something to those of the bloodline. With each bloodline being different.

I didn't mean implementing fixed bloodlines (otherwise you're basically back to a class-based system), what I meant was that each combination of warps could represent a bloodline, and that there would be incentives for players to join an existing bloodline rather than invent their own.

For example let's say I decide to create a werewolf character, so I select a wolflike head, fur-covered skin, vicious claws, and various other warps appropriate to how I feel a werewolf should look. By designing my own character, I've effectively created my own bloodline - a template that others can copy. I can then induct new players if they wish, and they'll get the same warps as me.

Why would they join my bloodline? Perhaps there's a cost for designing your own, or maybe characters advance at a speed relative to the strongest member of their bloodline (so you progress much faster if you join an established bloodline). Likewise, as the founder perhaps I can unlock new abilities for my bloodline as more members join, or maybe the warps get a bonus for each member of the same bloodline currently online, etc.

This is also similar to the way pantheons work in GW2. It's fairly easy to create your own, but it's expensive to buy all the options, so you really need to recruit members to help share the cost. And pantheon members get a bonus based on their rank within the pantheon as well as the rank of their pantheon, so (for example) you get a bigger bonus for being a mid-rank member of a top pantheon than being the founder of a weak pantheon. However there are only so many ranks available in each pantheon, so while there's certainly an incentive to band together (rather than play solo), the bigger the pantheon gets the more likely it is that some of the members will break off and start a new pantheon.

The idea is to give players some sort of faction identity, to encourage them to band together into rival groups (assuming of course that you wish to keep the same sort of PvP flavour as GodWars, which you may not).
08 Dec, 2011, LeMonseural wrote in the 11th comment:
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Oh ok I see now. I really like that idea.
08 Dec, 2011, Ssolvarain wrote in the 12th comment:
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I wish Glabrezus were stock in every game.

08 Dec, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 13th comment:
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Ssolvarain said:
I wish Glabrezus were stock in every game.

Most muds have little distinction between races, so a "Glabrezu" would usually just be a few stat modifiers and perhaps a permanent affect or two. As mobs, they'd probably be high level with some standard buffs, differing from other strong mobs only in their name and description.

Much as I like the idea of unusual monsters like the Glabrezu, the fact is that few muds would really do them justice.
10 Dec, 2011, LeMonseural wrote in the 14th comment:
Votes: 0
I just now went to your demon form link you posted earlier, it really made me want to do classes but have it to where individuals were different from each other but still the same class. Different from any MUD or GW I've ever played.

:evil: Love that demon class
10 Dec, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 15th comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
Ssolvarain said:
I wish Glabrezus were stock in every game.

Most muds have little distinction between races, so a "Glabrezu" would usually just be a few stat modifiers and perhaps a permanent affect or two. As mobs, they'd probably be high level with some standard buffs, differing from other strong mobs only in their name and description.

Much as I like the idea of unusual monsters like the Glabrezu, the fact is that few muds would really do them justice.

I can think of one very easy way to implement behaviours in mobs with objects, provided you already have objects that can fire skill/spell(equip the mob with it withthe right visibility flag and name, and the player will not notice it comes from an object and not the mob) . So why few ?
11 Dec, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 16th comment:
Votes: 0
LeMonseural said:
I just now went to your demon form link you posted earlier, it really made me want to do classes but have it to where individuals were different from each other but still the same class.

Yeah, as I've said in the past, "each "class" works like its own encapsulated "classless" system, with a variety of powers laid out in a skill-web".

Interestingly enough, neither the system for class powers nor the demon warps were part of my original design. They just sort of happened.

Rarva.Riendf said:
KaVir said:
Most muds have little distinction between races, so a "Glabrezu" would usually just be a few stat modifiers and perhaps a permanent affect or two. As mobs, they'd probably be high level with some standard buffs, differing from other strong mobs only in their name and description.

Much as I like the idea of unusual monsters like the Glabrezu, the fact is that few muds would really do them justice.

I can think of one very easy way to implement behaviours in mobs with objects, provided you already have objects that can fire skill/spell(equip the mob with it withthe right visibility flag and name, and the player will not notice it comes from an object and not the mob) . So why few ?

Because most muds don't bother. Whether it's a slug, or a cityguard, or ome powerful demon, they're all treated pretty much the same - just some stat differences (in many cases calculated automatically from level), perhaps some affects, and a name and description. Some do add special scripts or behaviour to a minority of their mobs, but it rarely has any mechanical impact along the lines discussed in the thread I linked to in my last post.

Of course it's possible to add interesting and unique mob behaviour, but I was answering the suggestion that Glabrezus should be "stock in every game" with the view that "few muds would really do them justice".

I'm a fan of having cool and unique monsters, but I think it's a shame when they're mechanically identical to all the other mobs in the mud. And yes, I also get irritated when people cut the arms and legs off a snake.
11 Dec, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 17th comment:
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And yes, I also get irritated when people cut the arms and legs off a snake.

emote 'Checks its code immediately cause he never actualy paid attention'…
Relief, death_cry actually depends on parts, :) so it is builder job to ensure proper race setting :)

I can only agree you, most dont bother, but maybe cause most players dont bother themselves.
I mean getting gold from corpses of little rats has been taken for granted now.
11 Dec, 2011, Ssolvarain wrote in the 18th comment:
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Rarva.Riendf said:
it is builder job to ensure proper race setting :)


You can also use 'part' and pick and choose between the various parts. Setting race is just a convenient cookie cutter :3
12 Dec, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 19th comment:
Votes: 0
Ssolvarain said:
Rarva.Riendf said:
it is builder job to ensure proper race setting :)

You can also use 'part' and pick and choose between the various parts. Setting race is just a convenient cookie cutter :3

Indeed you can do that as well to modify an existing race. I still have my share of absurd race setting in the game (Spiders set as halfing….yes I found those) Most likely because coders were too lazy to create the race, builders to lazy to use the 'unique' race and use a macro to build it themselves (can be tedious I admit).
I coded quite a few tools that parse for inconsitencies at boot between descriptions and race/class. (or stuff like trying to equip an anti evil item on an evil mob)..

To get back at the original post, it reminds me of the game Spore
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