27 May, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 61st comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
Rarva.Riendf said:
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And the difference isn't just cosmetic, but also functional and tactical.

It is in real life. Not really in a mud where you can get several sword blows without dying.

What does that have to do with my draw/sheathe system providing functional and tactical differences to the gameplay? Your reply makes no sense.

It makes sense as it mostly only affect the first round of combat. Since you know it is the first round, where people come from (from behind , in front of them etc (thats why you have was_in_room, if people are in offensive or defensive stance, detecting hidden or sneak etc, you can already decide what a player would do the first round of fight without needing its input (and still add some rrandomness as even when susupiscious you wont detect everything everytime), as he ALREADY told you what would be his actions by setting some automatic flags…

If you really want realism…give a deathstrike that works like 99% of the time to your players….Oh wait, you dont want realism, you want to justify realism in some places, but want total bullshit elsewhere.
You force player to sheath weapon and unsheat them like in real life, because tyou know it is a 'tactical' advantage…
In real life, not having your weapons unsheated while some crushed your head with a mace from behind made no difference anyway…->DEAD….or getting a strike in the throat etc…You want realism ? haha….
27 May, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 62nd comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
KaVir said:
Rarva.Riendf said:
Quote
And the difference isn't just cosmetic, but also functional and tactical.

It is in real life. Not really in a mud where you can get several sword blows without dying.

What does that have to do with my draw/sheathe system providing functional and tactical differences to the gameplay? Your reply makes no sense.

It makes sense as it mostly only affect the first round of combat.

Wrong. It very rarely effects the beginning of combat, it's mostly used later on in the fight, when players wish to change tactics.

Rarva.Riendf said:
Since you know it is the first round, where people come from (from behind , in front of them etc (thats why you have was_in_room, if people are in offensive or defensive stance, detecting hidden or sneak etc, you can already decide what a player would do the first round of fight without needing its input (and still add some rrandomness as even when susupiscious you wont detect everything everytime), as he ALREADY told you what would be his actions by setting some automatic flags…

I don't have "rounds", I don't have "rooms", and I most certainly don't have combat "without input" - my mud has twelve thousand fighting techniques, and you're suggesting I can automatically decide what the player wants to do? Once again it's clear that your experience is limited to archaic stock features, and that you're unable to think outside of that box, or even comprehend of a game that doesn't fit into that cookie-cutter "stock Diku" mold. This makes it very difficult to have any sort of constructive discussion.

Rarva.Riendf said:
You force player to sheath weapon and unsheat them like in real life, because tyou know it is a 'tactical' advantage…

I don't "force" them, I give them the option of changing weapons during a fight, to provide them with a wider range of tactical possibilities. If the player never wants to sheathe their weapons, they don't have to. If they don't want to use any weapons at all, they don't have to. More choice = more tactical possibilites.
27 May, 2011, kiasyn wrote in the 63rd comment:
Votes: 0
I automatically sheathe your post.

Ravra, Kavir's feature makes heaps of sense for his game (I highly suggest you try it out).
27 May, 2011, quixadhal wrote in the 64th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
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I have to try to imagine some kind of bizzare helmet with a brazier on it? Or a shoulder-mounted torch holder that somehow doesn't catch my hair on fire?

You have no magics in your realm ? And as I said already nobody forces you to keep the light source carried WHILE YOU FIGHT….
Oh and all light sources are not infinite in time as well…
And you can be robbed of it while you fight.


Sure, but a fighter is not a magic user and wouldn't know how to make a torch levitate and follow them around.

If you're in a dark place and you throw the torch to the ground, what are the odds it stays lit? Wouldn't it land in water and go out? How about landing in grass or leaves and starting a fire? How about one of the combatants steps on it and puts it out? Assuming all of those mostly-random chances have the effect of casting 'blindness' on everyone (unless you have infravision or something), then sure… but I've yet to see a mud implement any of that.

Yes, you can be robbed of it. What's the effect? In every mud I've seen, it has no effect on combat at all.. .you continue to swing and land hits as before, the only difference is your target may now show up as "someone", and doing a "look" will show you a dark room.

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If you know everyone will ALWAYS have a light source, why bother with darkness at all?

Because indoor a light source is enough to illuminate it, in a cathedral it is not enough, and in a field….you get the point ?

But again, that's now how I've ever seen it implemented. It would be pretty nice to have the room description vary by the amount of light, but every game I've seen implements it as a boolean. You see the room description if it's daylight (or you have a light source), or you see "It is dark", or possibly a nighttime description. A few show night descriptions or "it is dark" instead. I've never seen anyone show more than two stages of descriptions though.

I'm all for the clever and intelligent use of light (or lack thereof), and if there IS a real reason to use light sources, then having the limitation of needing a hand to hold it (or magic) seems to be a fair tradeoff. My point though, is the way I've seen light done in every Diku-style implementation is without any real cost. You can always have a light source "equipped", and the cost of having one is always trivial (torches, spells, whatever), so there's never a reason NOT to have one.

I mean, even thieves can sneak around and hide WHILE USING A TORCH….
27 May, 2011, Scandum wrote in the 65th comment:
Votes: 0
Sheathing to equipment is pretty cool, though I'll have to agree with Rarva.Riendf that a limited accessible inventory would more or less accomplish the same thing. A MUD without an inventory would be interesting as you'd be forced to choose between a backpack or something more suited for combat.

One thing about light sources is that in a good implementation only one person needs a light source for the entire group to benefit from it. I always disliked how rooms could be set to light or dark in Diku, rather than allowing actual burning torches to be stuck in the wall, or allowing an adventurer to stab his torch in the ground and draw his sword, and maybe allowing an opponent with night vision to attack the torch or pick it up and snuff it.

Definitely a loss when MUDs don't bother implementing darkness. There's nothing quite as exciting as the flickering of your torch as it's about to go out while exploring a large tunnel system.
27 May, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 66th comment:
Votes: 0
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Wrong. It very rarely effects the beginning of combat, it's mostly used later on in the fight, when players wish to change tactics.

I proved you that if not the first round you actually achieve nothing different than what even the most basic stock diku can. (and even the first round in itself is not that different)
Because have 4 commands instead of 2 does not mean you achieve anything else different that I automatically do because once again there is no other choices anyway. You need to either drop your weapon or sheath it to pick another one that is sheated…so just type wear weapon shoudl automatically sheat the one you have in the hand, and wield the other. If your player want to chose to drop his weapon he just have to type drop and wield the next one.
You have not given a single case where I could not decide what a player would do…not one.

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I don't have "rounds", I don't have "rooms", and I most certainly don't have combat "without input" - my mud has twelve thousand fighting techniques, and you're suggesting I can automatically decide what the player wants to do?

You can can claim whatever you want, all your players are not in the same place, so you have 'rooms', whatever you call them.
You have rounds because a computer only execute commands one after the other…Again call it as you wish, you still alternate between one player and another…
You do exaclty the same thing that telling 'I have no races you can be the one you want'
'I do not have rooms you decide where you are'

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Once again it's clear that your experience is limited to archaic stock features, and that you're unable to think outside of that box, or even comprehend of a game that doesn't fit into that cookie-cutter "stock Diku" mold.

Once again this is not a DikuMud discussion, but a gameplay discussion. You are the only always seeing it the Diku way.


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I don't "force" them, I give them the option of changing weapons during a fight, to provide them with a wider range of tactical possibilities. If the player never wants to sheathe their weapons, they don't have to. If they don't want to use any weapons at all, they don't have to. More choice = more tactical possibilites.

You actually do not give more option that a pure stock Diku…you just name it differently, and add commands to achieve same results….Thats not thinking out of the box, that is adding redundancy in commands…

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Yes, you can be robbed of it. What's the effect? In every mud I've seen, it has no effect on combat at all.. .you continue to swing and land hits as before, the only difference is your target may now show up as "someone", and doing a "look" will show you a dark room.

1:effect you lose any affect of the light as you are not its owner anymore (if it has affect, it is magical if it is magical dont start lecture me about how the light need to be used to give the affect…)
2:if it is the only light in the room, it is obvious the room is now in the dark
3:Yep you will get hit by someone, quite logical when you cannot see…but more like that you wil hit a fucking lot less, and get hit a fucking lot more if your opponent has infra and not you (provided you are not cold_blooded or undead)



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One thing about light sources is that in a good implementation only one person needs a light source for the entire group to benefit from it.

It is not the case in stock Diku ? Would have to check but at least in mine setting it to Dark means it needs at least one light so everyone can see
(basically mud keep tracks of how many lights there is in the room)


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I always disliked how rooms could be set to light or dark in Diku, rather than allowing actual burning torches to be stuck in the wall,

You have both option actually. Load a light source as an object, and even a dark room will be lit.

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or allowing an adventurer to stab his torch in the ground and draw his sword, and maybe allowing an opponent with night vision to attack the torch or pick it up and snuff it.

That is how I consider light while fighting. I assume the player just 'drop' it to fight, like he would with a functional brain….

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If you're in a dark place and you throw the torch to the ground, what are the odds it stays lit? Wouldn't it land in water and go out? How about landing in grass or leaves and starting a fire?

Not every light is fire based, especially in a magical world. I differentiate many things depending on what sector you are in as well (water, submarine, air, etc). It is mostly a builder problem anyway, but code in itself can support it very easily (All items are made of something, just need to check if the light is fire based when you drop it…) Unlit it is one line of code away, no one asked for it.

Oh from Diku Rom whatever, I think that except the sockets, and some code logics for areas (repoping etc) there is not much more left in common.
Having magic missile does not mean it will do the same than in the original diku….I provide an easy access to the one knowing original diku because the commands are the same, and will mostly act the same in a basic context (out of fight). But everything else is heavily dependant on the context, like if you come in the back of your opponent, how many people there is in a room where the exit is, who entered last etc…Oh and agin rooms does not means '4 walls and doors'
It just means:how many people see each other in this place. (off course in a field, there is no such thing as who entered last in effect)
27 May, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 67th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
I proved you that if not the first round you actually achieve nothing different than what even the most basic stock diku can.

Nope, the only thing you've proved is that you're unable to comprehend or understand anything other than stock Diku implementations.

My system works for my mud. I'm sorry that you don't understand it, but that's your loss not mine.

Rarva.Riendf said:
You can can claim whatever you want, all your players are not in the same place, so you have 'rooms', whatever you call them.

Actually they generally are in the same place. But if you can't even understand drawing/sheathing, I'm certainly not going to attempt explaining a coordinate-based world to you.

Rarva.Riendf said:
You have rounds because a computer only execute commands one after the other…Again call it as you wish, you still alternate between one player and another…

No, each player fights at their own pace. It's theoretically possible for one player to land half a dozen blows on the same second, while another waits an hour between each attack. But once again, I fear that trying to explain a manual combat system to you would be an exercise in futility.

Rarva.Riendf said:
You do exaclty the same thing that telling 'I have no races you can be the one you want'
'I do not have rooms you decide where you are'

Er, no. My mud has a roomless movement system, it's explicitly supported through code. No pretending required.

Rarva.Riendf said:
Once again this is not a DikuMud discussion, but a gameplay discussion.

It is, but anything beyond stock Diku seems to fly straight over your head.
27 May, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 68th comment:
Votes: 0
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It is, but anything beyond stock Diku seems to fly straight over your head.

Problem is you only know stock Dikus and assume they all work the same….that is why the discussion fly over your head…
27 May, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 69th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
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It is, but anything beyond stock Diku seems to fly straight over your head.

Problem is you only know stock Dikus and assume they all work the same….that is why the discussion fly over your head…

Uh huh. Except I'm the one developing my second scratch-built mud, explaining my custom features, and you're the one coding on an antiquated Diku derivative, who posts newbie coding questions and can't understand features outside of a stock Diku context.
27 May, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 70th comment:
Votes: 0
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who posts newbie coding questions and can't understand features outside of a stock Diku context.

Huhu…again…I only asked so I did not reinvent the wheel when I inherited the base I started with, and because I was (still is) way more experienced in JAVA than C.
but yeah call names is easy….(what were my 'newbie coding question' btw…cause I did not see you answer any of them…)

And about my comprehension you are the one unable to give any example that justify sheating and unsheating compared to a what a diku rom can perfectly handle provided you expanded the basic commands…
But well there is no point arguing with you as the only thing you say is 'I need it' but you are totally unable to justify…
Mister 'I have no inventory ', but still can get items…mister 'I have no container'…shrug..like this was an 'out of the box' thinking….
Shrug…
At least this thread gave me one or two easy to implement ideas, provided I am asked by builder for them.

And last but not least, a handful of diku provided sheating and unsheating with guards aggro to people walking with unsheated weapons…it is like 30 lines of easy code to put in…what an original feature…
27 May, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 71st comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
And about my comprehension you are the one unable to give any example that justify sheating and unsheating compared to a what a diku rom can perfectly handle provided you expanded the basic commands…

I already explained it here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here…and particularly here and here. If you still don't understand it, I doubt you ever will.

Rarva.Riendf said:
And last but not least, a handful of diku provided sheating and unsheating with guards aggro to people walking with unsheated weapons…it is like 30 lines of easy code to put in…what an original feature…

Except that's not what my feature does. Once again I'll reiterate that not everyone runs a stock Diku derivative. You seem unable to comprehend that my equipment system doesn't work like Diku, despite my repeated explanations. Every wearable item can also be held, most weapons can also be sheathed, and this results in three (as opposed to your two) mechanically distinct states for equipment: held, worn and inventory.
27 May, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 72nd comment:
Votes: 0
All the link you provided were answered telling you how unecessary it was for achieving the features you talked about…but yeah, I am the one not understanding…

And no I have more than two ways of holding eq management…just that I do not need differents commands, it is dealt internally…what is in your direct inventory is considered 'sheated' held by a rope etc, and is dealt as encumbranced. And will affect your fighting skills/parameters.
What is in containers that will not be as easily accessed in fight than out of fight.
And no you are not forced to use container as well….(that would be your kind of inventory..)

Basically I offer the same possibilities…once again you cannot think outside of basic dikus…
27 May, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 73rd comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
Basically I offer the same possibilities…

No, you don't. Your approach is stock Diku, straight out of the early 90s.
27 May, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 74th comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
Rarva.Riendf said:
Basically I offer the same possibilities…

No, you don't. Your approach is stock Diku, straight out of the early 90s.

You never played or even looked at the code, but right, you know how the fight system of my mud works just because it is a rom….
I am the culprit, I have a kill command…sigh…
27 May, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 75th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
KaVir said:
Rarva.Riendf said:
Basically I offer the same possibilities…

No, you don't. Your approach is stock Diku, straight out of the early 90s.

You never played or even looked at the code, but right, you know how the fight system of my mud works just because it is a rom….

I was referring to your equipment system, which you described earlier in this thread (I also logged onto Arcane Nites for a brief look at it in action). It appears to be the standard Diku approach, and despite your claims above it does not "offer the same possibilities" as mine.

We can compare combat systems as well if you wish, however.
27 May, 2011, Tijer wrote in the 76th comment:
Votes: 0
A feature i would like to see is a feature to SHUT UP Rarva.Riendf (as hes managed to totally de-rail the subject of this thread)
27 May, 2011, Vigud wrote in the 77th comment:
Votes: 0
Yes, I kindly ask the mods to split the thread. Feel free to delete this message if it happens.
27 May, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 78th comment:
Votes: 0
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I was referring to your equipment system, which you described earlier in this thread (I also logged onto Arcane Nites for a brief look at it in action). It appears to be the standard Diku approach, and despite your claims above it does not "offer the same possibilities" as mine.

Problem is you did not really used it into action, as I said result of commands are the same if youuse them out of fight.
You will not 'see' any difference in fight without testing fight with or without a hundred items in your direct inventory compared to in your container etc etc.
I told you: it looks like a diku mud because I want it too, so that players have the same feeling at the start.
Then they learn gradually that commands are in fact very different. and that the coammnds do not act the same out of fight, in fight, while polymorphed, depends on wich kind of terrains they are in. You just ignored that and still say 'It appears to be the standard Diku approach, and despite your claims above it does not "offer the same possibilities" as mine.'
Yes…it 'appears'…that is the whole point…

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A feature i would like to see is a feature to SHUT UP Rarva.Riendf (as hes managed to totally de-rail the subject of this thread)

Me AND KaVir pretty please, I am not talking to myself …yet
28 May, 2011, duwnel wrote in the 79th comment:
Votes: 0
To the OP
I'm sure a great deal can be learned from KaVir and Rarva.Riendf's discussion. I would suggest a consideration in this same line of thinking; each person has their own preferences, their own desires, and should be able to shape their world to fit their vision. I've always loved taking the approach in games such as these of playing GOD (Cheekily, "Game Operations Director"). On a personal level, much of my day-to-day programming begins life as a framework which can then be modified to serve multiple purposes. Truly this is much simpler when dealing in PHP, JSP, Flex, etc. than it is in C, but can lend itself well to development of a codebase.

My attitude is this: The codebase is the core on which the game (MUD) is developed; and as each person has the desire to inflict their own will upon the world, a good codebase is one that encourages this. Give the Coder (Owner/GOD) the tools to work with, and watch what they'll make.

Now, for a MUD, build the world as you wish to play it. Again, it seems we can learn a great deal from KaVir and Rarva.Riendf they've each built the world they want to play, and each have followers who loyally play their games (and, I'm sure in some cases, play both). The truth is that we are all predictable: we are all the same, having similar desires and inklings and passions. There is someone out there to play your game, but it's up to you to find them and encourage them to try. You're competing against 1000+ games how will yours stand out?
31 Aug, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 80th comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
Rarva.Riendf said:
Quote
And the difference isn't just cosmetic, but also functional and tactical.

It is in real life. Not really in a mud where you can get several sword blows without dying.

What does that have to do with my draw/sheathe system providing functional and tactical differences to the gameplay? Your reply makes no sense.

It makes sense as it mostly only affect the first round of combat. Since you know it is the first round, where people come from (from behind , in front of them etc (thats why you have was_in_room, if people are in offensive or defensive stance, detecting hidden or sneak etc, you can already decide what a player would do the first round of fight without needing its input (and still add some rrandomness as even when susupiscious you wont detect everything everytime), as he ALREADY told you what would be his actions by setting some automatic flags…

If you really want realism…give a deathstrike that works like 99% of the time to your players….Oh wait, you dont want realism, you want to justify realism in some places, but want total bullshit elsewhere.
You force player to sheath weapon and unsheat them like in real life, because tyou know it is a 'tactical' advantage…
In real life, not having your weapons unsheated while some crushed your head with a mace from behind made no difference anyway…->




EDit:boggle I dunno how this got posted today…I did not volontary anyway. Or maybe a bug in MB database
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