14 Sep, 2010, Jhypsy Shah wrote in the 61st comment:
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I'd agree that item/gear decay is good for the economy. Never remember seeing it tied into weather or conditions (like salt water, rain, terrain) though, execpt maybe torches.

I like how in ADnD game ya can find powerful drow armor yet it doesn't last in sunlight.

Seems some level based games may have a class such as a fighter class who may be a level too low to use a weapon yet another lesser combative class would have the same level based item restrictions for weapons.

I think rogues/thieves usually get the worse end. Especially if they're is no player-stealing at all, the locks are almost all unpickable and they can't get the skill untill level 20 anyway.

I remember seeing a mud years ago (i think it was shattered realms or something like that) that allowed a player or pc to pick an item after a kill but there was no pk corpses.

skill based muds are always worth checking out :)
14 Sep, 2010, Garick wrote in the 62nd comment:
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Rogues seem to generally be the least useful class, in most DnD based Muds. I assume it's mostly because a lot of their skills are difficult to incorporate into a Mud setting, but I've always thought it a shame that they aren't given more versatility.
14 Sep, 2010, David Haley wrote in the 63rd comment:
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IMHO a big problem with rogues is that many of their "traditional" skills, like stealing, are inherently very annoying to other players, without necessarily giving people a fair chance at fighting back. That is to say, if the thief succeeds in stealing from you, they can take something extremely valuable without you even having a chance at fighting back. Sure, if they fail you can fight, or however it would work, but it's essentially giving them a potentially free insta-loot, which is not something most people would be happy about in competitive environments where equipment matters.

I'm not sure why there hasn't been more with traps etc. though. I think it's because traps are very spatially driven, and most MUDs aren't; spatial tactics tend to not be that important, most of the time, whereas a trap focuses on drawing people into it.
14 Sep, 2010, Jhypsy Shah wrote in the 64th comment:
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ironically, I think the rogues (especially the trapfinder class) in DDO is quite useful, especially on harder settings.

Maybe there could be a Save the Rogues thread, brainstorm some stuff, maybe find some ways to implement/incorporate rogue activities.. ya'd think they'd have a guild or something :D
14 Sep, 2010, KaVir wrote in the 65th comment:
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Rudha said:
I don't like level requirements for … most things, honestly, but equipment makes the least sense - nothing in the real world is going to stop an unskilled person from picking up an exotic weapon like nun-chucks and trying to use them, they'll just suck at it and possibly maim themselves

The "reduced effectiveness" variant I discussed in post #1 addresses that. Likewise, the "total level" variant I use justifies the restriction thematically as a tolerence for magical radiation - the more powerful the character, the more magical radiation they can withstand.

Garick said:
As for what you said about the equipment being locked, I can agree with that to a degree.. I've always felt more that once a player has earned their equipment (through whatever means it took) it's theirs to do with what they please. If they decide to give it to a newbie, that's fine. The newbie has an advantage for a while, but eventually skill levels/proficiencies (If you have them) play a role, and the edge is lost.

The problem is that newbies with top-of-the-range gear will no longer need to hunt for more equipment, nor will they find areas of their own level particularly challenging - so they'll probably get bored. Perhaps they'll get some fun out of PK, as they'll have a brutal advantage, but that's unlikely to go down well with other players.

Garick said:
As far as giving equipment to alts.. I've always been against multiplaying being allowed.

So they give it to a friend who then hands it back when they're playing their alt. Or they hide it somewhere and collect it later. Or they play through a proxy, preventing you from working out that they're multiplaying.

But even if they don't multiplay, you still run into the same problem with players giving gear to their friends, their clanmates, or random newbies. Unless there's some other way to keep the equipment in check (such as rent), you're going to have serious problems with game balance.
14 Sep, 2010, jurdendurden wrote in the 66th comment:
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I thought about this very thing when I sat down to pencil out how the thief was going to work out in my mud. They do seem to be very very annoying, and quite useless. My mud is much more group oriented than it's stock form so it's important for each class to have skills which are availabe that are useful and learned at low levels. Therefore all of their basic group-related skills (pick lock, traps, detect secret, detect hidden, etc.. ) are all available at initiate level in the guild and for 1-2 creation points. As for steal… I have a couple ways I take care of this. First I have a no_loot item flag. Second, when a thief steals an item of sufficient weight/size, the player will see a message something like, "Your belongings shift in your pack.", or "Your belongings feel a bit lighter…", which is based on an intelligence/wisdom check.
14 Sep, 2010, jurdendurden wrote in the 67th comment:
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KaVir said:
Unless there's some other way to keep the equipment in check (such as rent), you're going to have serious problems with game balance.


Some sort of soulbound item_flag could fix this. I also saw a mud with accounts that bound all of your items to your account, so you could never multiplay your eq no matter how hard you tried. Even giving it to someone else, and having them hand it back to a diff char wouldn't do it, because the item had something like a "original account" flag attached to it as well.



EDIT: changed you you to so you
14 Sep, 2010, Jhypsy Shah wrote in the 68th comment:
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I was just thinking, what if certain npc's (especially thieves) peeked certain items of of a certain power level in inventories (depending on the item and npc) and tended to try and steal those items when-ever they peeked them in inventories, by stealth or by force, or even disarm?

Seems like that may balance out a newbie who got their all powerful sword stolen but weren't powerful enough to take it back without actually having it equiped, hehe..
14 Sep, 2010, Ssolvarain wrote in the 69th comment:
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KaVir said:
Unless there's some other way to keep the equipment in check (such as rent), you're going to have serious problems with game balance.


Rent is EVIL!

And I once saw a MUD that had weapons that powered up, received at level 1. There was a list of places or mobs or something in the form of hints that pointed you to a specific mob that dropped the power up. Then you'd seek out the next one. I liked that idea.

And they had a wicked magic missile spell, with multiple missiles. Can't remember what it was though.
14 Sep, 2010, Jhypsy Shah wrote in the 70th comment:
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curious, anybody ever implement a rust monster or slimy ooze type of mob?
14 Sep, 2010, KaVir wrote in the 71st comment:
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Jhypsy Shah said:
curious, anybody ever implement a rust monster or slimy ooze type of mob?

Not that I know of (except as generic mobs), although they've been suggested in the past. In most muds, the mobs are all pretty much identical other than power level and cosmetics - that's something I've tried hard to avoid.
15 Sep, 2010, Rudha wrote in the 72nd comment:
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KaVir said:
But even if they don't multiplay, you still run into the same problem with players giving gear to their friends, their clanmates, or random newbies. Unless there's some other way to keep the equipment in check (such as rent), you're going to have serious problems with game balance.


I like the approach of the weapon being a requirement for the skill that you use. Sure having a better weapon may give you an edge in that skill but ultimately an experienced player with an average weapon and much more skill is probably going to hit more accurately and more powerfully because of that increased skill, than a newbie with (to borrow a previous exampe) God's Own Hammer.

Maya/Rudha
15 Sep, 2010, ATT_Turan wrote in the 73rd comment:
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jurdendurden said:
I thought about this very thing when I sat down to pencil out how the thief was going to work out in my mud. They do seem to be very very annoying, and quite useless.


You could do some things with traps, as Mr. Haley suggested - set out caltrops before the party flees so the mob can't follow, toss a net at the mob that slows its rate of attack, make little dart launchers that periodically make attacks against enemies. If your game has some sort of attention/aggro system, you could give rogues commands to make sneaky attacks that might be individually more powerful than other melee fighters but not draw any aggro to themselves. Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
16 Sep, 2010, Rudha wrote in the 74th comment:
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I want to try to work out some sort of thievery system that isn't a grief magnet some time for my mud, though it isn't a high priority.

As regards a thief class - A thief class tends to have a high amount of utility skills. Stealth, etc. It isn't the best for a strict PvP game system because while a thief may have a lot of ways to hamper a foe, a warrior class is going to have a lot of ways to kill the thief.

Maya/Rudha
16 Sep, 2010, Ssolvarain wrote in the 75th comment:
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Rudha said:
As regards a thief class - A thief class tends to have a high amount of utility skills. Stealth, etc. It isn't the best for a strict PvP game system because while a thief may have a lot of ways to hamper a foe, a warrior class is going to have a lot of ways to kill the thief.


I almost typed this exact thing earlier. Though it should be noted that thieves are generally the masters of burst damage. Stealth, in an environment where it's hard to detect, is a beautiful thing. Utility is cool, but most muds don't really capitalize on that. Like being able to snag a foe somewhere long enough to close the door and lock it. Then maybe light the house on fire :3
16 Sep, 2010, Grumny wrote in the 76th comment:
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This is one of those rare topics that actually gets me willing to make a post instead of lurking. I'll probably make this novel length, so my apologies in advance. Feel free to shoot anything down.

In regards to thieves in particular, a lot of their uselessness in most muds has littleto do with how they are coded for the most part. Their problem happens with the building of areas. I think that all too often there isn't enough quality control in areas that are built. This goes beyond preventing uber EQ or pushover mobs. The mud as a whole should have a good balance of things to do for each class, unless you deliberately want to do otherwise.

When builders make an area, I have too often seen doors and chests with locks that are not just hard to pick, but actually flagged unpickable. This automatically removes one of the thieves core skills. Mobs, to make them tougher are given the see_hidden flags, again, thieves get busted.

There needs to be a good balance of coded skills and areas that actually make use of those skills, otherwise the coders work is wasted and players get bored and limit themselves to playing warriors and mages.

Basically, builders and coders need to work more closely together. If a coder makes a skill, the builders should make use of it. Put stuff in where it can be used, please.

—-

Now, for the level restrictions stuff. If you are running a dikurivative class and level based mud, level based EQ is about the only thing I can think of to maintain balance. But if you step outside of that paradigm. I would recommend looking at something like the Rolemaster RPG system.

This is completely from memory since I haven't looked at the books for years…

But there was a basic formula.

if (die roll + attack bonuses(1) - defense bonuses(2) ) > 100 then successful hit

This was a d100 roll of course.

(1) attack bonuses were all bonuses the character got to his attack roll. Skill, level, magic bonus, position bonus, surprise, whatever

(2) defense bonuses were all bonuses the victim got to help his defense. armor bonuses, dexterity bonuses, spells, whatever.

The nice thing about this is that you have no need for level restrictions on EQ. It all falls into the attack or defense bonus. This means, that only at the lower levels would high power weapons make an unbalanced situation, because unless the lowbie with uber weapon also has uber defensive capabilities, he'll get slaughtered when trying to fight mobs outside his level range.

If he has both uber offensive stuff and uber defensive stuff, there are other problems with the system than level restrictions.
16 Sep, 2010, ATT_Turan wrote in the 77th comment:
Votes: 0
Grumny said:
if (die roll + attack bonuses(1) - defense bonuses(2) ) > 100 then successful hit

This was a d100 roll of course.

(1) attack bonuses were all bonuses the character got to his attack roll. Skill, level, magic bonus, position bonus, surprise, whatever

(2) defense bonuses were all bonuses the victim got to help his defense. armor bonuses, dexterity bonuses, spells, whatever.

The nice thing about this is that you have no need for level restrictions on EQ. It all falls into the attack or defense bonus. This means, that only at the lower levels would high power weapons make an unbalanced situation, because unless the lowbie with uber weapon also has uber defensive capabilities, he'll get slaughtered when trying to fight mobs outside his level range.

If he has both uber offensive stuff and uber defensive stuff, there are other problems with the system than level restrictions.


Your equation is fundamentally the same thing that a Diku uses (it might not be a d100 and the target number to compare it to might not be 100, but you're still adding bonuses and subtracting penalties from a die roll). How long the problem persists for depends on how much your hit points and weapon damage scales with levels - I might think it perfectly reasonable for a character to be able to kill a mob half his level in a single swing. That means a level 50 character given a level 100 weapon would be one-shotting mobs with no expenditure of resources.

Other notions listed in prior pages could have some effect - not having hit points and damage dealt change over levels (so the level 50 would hit with the level 100 sword, but not kill his target), still having limits in place through a magic radiation mechanic rather than less realistic level restrictions, etc.
16 Sep, 2010, Rudha wrote in the 78th comment:
Votes: 0
I think the problem with many thief class implementations is that most of the 'utility' skills and specialty attacks end up being highly situational and generally don't apply to most combat.

Maya/Rudha
16 Sep, 2010, Grumny wrote in the 79th comment:
Votes: 0
Sorry, it was late and I was tired so I didn't get enough info into that post. It still may not be what people are looking for, but that's ok :)

In the system I mentioned, defensive bonus doesn't really improve as you increase in level. For the most part it is limited to your dex/agility bonus and whatever magical bonuses you can acquire.

What is important is that you can, and almost always will, use part of your offensive bonus to defend yourself. This simulates how much effort you are using to parry and block your opponent's attacks. This can be changed from round to round.

This is where it begins to balance out, a level 10 char with a level 50 sword should be forced to choose between easy easy to hit/easy to be hit or hard to hit/hard to be hit.

Anyone who has played with the I.C.E. Rolemaster system can chime in :)
I'm avoiding the ICE crit system here, that stuff is nasty.

This won't fix everything I know. But really, with the abundance of 100 or 200 or 500 level muds around, this is always going to be a problem. Because, in most cases, the real problem is not the EQ, but in other parts of the system. I.E. Too many levels, too fine a granurity for levels, too much disparity between lowest level and max level and things like that.

THAT is not something I really have any ideas on though. Probably just the nature of the beast.

Grumny
18 Sep, 2010, Deimos wrote in the 80th comment:
Votes: 0
In my opinion, thief classes are usually pointless because most players are just too sensitive and emotional about what happens in-game. No matter how "fairly" the mechanics of stealing, lock-picking, etc. are implemented, there are still hordes of players out there who have that "what's mine is mine - forever" mentality and get all butt hurt at the thought of someone taking their precious.

In defiance to such players, my game is very liberal with what is allowable behavior. Players can steal from, attack, or even kill other players anywhere they choose. There are consequences for certain actions in certain areas (like being tossed in jail if you're caught stealing by a city guard), and I'm working on a reputation system that isn't fully fleshed out yet, but for the most part, the game-play pans out a lot more like what you would see in a typical fantasy movie versus a typical fantasy MUD. Bad things happen to good people, and vice versa. That's just life. This has the benefit of making the game more interesting, with far more complex relationships and scenarios, but has the drawback of turning off a ton of prospective players. As I haven't actually finished the game yet, whether or not this will be my downfall is YTBD, but I wouldn't do it any other way. It just doesn't make sense otherwise.
60.0/124