08 Jun, 2010, Katiara wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
As my time is coming to an end on the IMC2 network and MudBytes I felt it necessary for the few remaining people who care to know what happens when no one is looking. So I am going to try and give you an explanation of what I have seen over the past few days.

First off, everyone says, it is just Crat, he causes trouble, why defend him?
My problem was with the way things were handled in general. It is unfortunate people are willing to overlook foul play because it was Crat on the receiving end. Believe me, I understand Crat has a strong personality, you really like him or you hate him, I have NEVER heard anyone with the opinion, Crat is an okay guy. He can push buttons like I have never seen before. That being said, I understand where Davion and Kiasyn were coming from BUT it doesnt make it right.

So, why was I upset then?
A rule dealing with IMC2 was changed. Wording was changed to disallow unwarranted hostility. The rule previous stated unwarranted hostility towards newbies. The rule was changed, it was announced, and within a short period of time Crat was banned for violating the rule. My issue was a rule was changed just to deal with and single out a person. I have no issue with the change itself and had the ban followed proper procedure, warning said user he violated a changed rule and then ban when the warning was not heeded, I would have applauded the admins. Instead, tempers were running high and the admins took the easy way out.

At the end of three days, prior to allowing Crat back on the IMC2 network, Davion decided to talk with a few of us on ichat regarding the situation. It was a very honest and open discussion. Davion doesnt like Crat and everyone understands that. We explained he is partially to blame because instead of taking admin actions, he verbally fights back allowing the behavior on the network. We expressed a want for consistency in the way rules were enforced. Davion pointed out that ichat had been so clean since Crat was banned and liked it. We offered possible suggestions on how to keep it that way without rules just for Crat. At some point during the conversation, I mentioned Kiacode. Yes, I, Katiara, mentioned it. In response to this, Davion bashed Kayle and continued to do so until I disconnected my mud from the IMC2 network. It will not be reconnecting.

Kiacode What is it and isnt this an insult?
This is a term many users have come to use in regards to the Megabot code. Anyone that has been around MB and IMC2 is well aware that Kiasyn is brilliant. He knows a lot and is helpful when he has time to be. However, he generally doesnt fix things in the MegaBot code. He allows them to go on for long periods of time, some times over a year before adding a new feature and still not fixing the old one. We all understand Kiasyn has a job and a life. We know Megabot isnt his biggest concern. So is this an insult, NO. It just is what it is. Kiasyn is an admin and will always be subject to criticism just like any other admin. The term does not degrade him in any way. This is a public spotlight kind of thing. All of us have projects that we will never get to finish, and this is most likely one of his. Users are allowed to criticize and jab admins and Kiacode is just this.

Why was Davion in the wrong for bashing Kayle?
Davion broke one of the IMC2 rules. He displayed unwarranted hostility towards a user. Firstly, the comment about Kiacode was made by me, so if Davion was mad, he should have addressed it with me. If I was in the wrong by making said comment, he should have taken appropriate admin action rather allow his emotions to take over. After a nice talk, he displayed all of the traits he claims to dislike Crat for.

Did Davion admit or apologize for his action and will he be punished?
Davion never once admitted wrong doing. He rather tried to give explanation saying Kayle was bashing Kiasyn first. Once again, I was the one that made the comment and secondly, if on IMC2 when someone violates the rules, you bash them rather than ban, why was Crat banned again? As of the time I disconnected my mud from IMC2, he had not apologized. At this point, I honestly doubt he will be punished for his actions.

Do you have a log of what happened last night?
Yes, I do. It is located here if you would like to read it.
08 Jun, 2010, flumpy wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
I think this is utterly disgusting behaviour, and because I doubt anything will be done I feel incredibly sorry for you and Kayle.

I can only apologise, as a member of the community, for the way this community has treated you both. Yes I know it's not my fault in particular, but someone has to apologise for this outrage, and I only fear it calls for apologies will yet again fall on deaf ears. Our admins should be displaying self control and level headedness, and if they can't do it then someone has to.

As it is, they're behaving like idiots.

I for one will be spreading the bad news about MB as much as I can, and will probably avoid posting here unless someone's bashing someone else. It's a sorry state of affairs, and I know I have said it before, but this time I will definitely drop into the lurker pit - at least until I can see some maturity being shown by those in charge.

As for IMC, I hardly use it anyway, so no big loss for me tbh. I don't have a mud I can disconnect, but if I did, I would, and I would urge others to do so as well.

Ho hum. Sad days.
08 Jun, 2010, Sinistrad wrote in the 3rd comment:
Votes: 0
Humph =(
08 Jun, 2010, Cratylus wrote in the 4th comment:
Votes: 0
flumpy said:
As for IMC, I hardly use it anyway, so no big loss for me tbh. I don't have a mud I can disconnect, but if I did, I would, and I would urge others to do so as well


I suppose it's a little earlier than I expected, but such people could avail themselves of my IMC2 server,
which connects them to a network which is just as popular and lively, if not moreso.

And it happens to have Kayle and Kat on it already ;)

-Crat
http://www.mudbytes.net/index.php?a=topi...
08 Jun, 2010, Asylumius wrote in the 5th comment:
Votes: 0
Katiara said:
First off, everyone says, it is just Crat, he causes trouble, why defend him?
My problem was with the way things were handled in general. It is unfortunate people are willing to overlook foul play because it was Crat on the receiving end. Believe me, I understand Crat has a strong personality, you really like him or you hate him, I have NEVER heard anyone with the opinion, Crat is an okay guy. He can push buttons like I have never seen before. That being said, I understand where Davion and Kiasyn were coming from BUT it doesnt make it right.


I Don't think this really has nothing to do with what happened. Davion made it clear he doesn't like Cratylus. Kiasyn is the one to put the ban in place. Even if Davion were going to let his dislike for Cratylus influence his role of enforcing the rules on ICM2, it doesn't matter in this case because Davion didn't DO anything besides speak his mind and get some people riled up.

Katiara said:
So, why was I upset then?
A rule dealing with IMC2 was changed. Wording was changed to disallow unwarranted hostility. The rule previous stated unwarranted hostility towards newbies. The rule was changed, it was announced, and within a short period of time Crat was banned for violating the rule. My issue was a rule was changed just to deal with and single out a person. I have no issue with the change itself and had the ban followed proper procedure, warning said user he violated a changed rule and then ban when the warning was not heeded, I would have applauded the admins. Instead, tempers were running high and the admins took the easy way out.

At the end of three days, prior to allowing Crat back on the IMC2 network, Davion decided to talk with a few of us on ichat regarding the situation. It was a very honest and open discussion. Davion doesnt like Crat and everyone understands that. We explained he is partially to blame because instead of taking admin actions, he verbally fights back allowing the behavior on the network. We expressed a want for consistency in the way rules were enforced. Davion pointed out that ichat had been so clean since Crat was banned and liked it. We offered possible suggestions on how to keep it that way without rules just for Crat. At some point during the conversation, I mentioned Kiacode. Yes, I, Katiara, mentioned it. In response to this, Davion bashed Kayle and continued to do so until I disconnected my mud from the IMC2 network. It will not be reconnecting.


As I understand it, Kiasyn changed the wording of the rules and Cratylus acknowledged that the rules had been modified before he broke them, he simply didn't feel like figuring out what the change actually was. So you could argue that Cratylus wasn't aware of the nature of the rule change, but he was aware of a rule change. I this Samson covered this quite nicely:

"Officer, I knew the speed limit had changed, but I didn't know the exact amount it changed by. I assumed it was a change that sucked, and just didn't bother checking. The real problem is you gave me a ticket for it."

The rule now says, "unwarranted hostility". I think given the atmosphere during last night's discussion, most of the hostility between those involved was warranted. You can really only argue one of two things, either A) none of the people you mented were breaking the rules, or B) everyone was. Either way, since bullets were flying both ways, I think it's fair enough to call it a draw and chalk it up to a few people having an argument on an inappropriate channel.

Katiara said:
Kiacode What is it and isnt this an insult?
This is a term many users have come to use in regards to the Megabot code. Anyone that has been around MB and IMC2 is well aware that Kiasyn is brilliant. He knows a lot and is helpful when he has time to be. However, he generally doesnt fix things in the MegaBot code. He allows them to go on for long periods of time, some times over a year before adding a new feature and still not fixing the old one. We all understand Kiasyn has a job and a life. We know Megabot isnt his biggest concern. So is this an insult, NO. It just is what it is. Kiasyn is an admin and will always be subject to criticism just like any other admin. The term does not degrade him in any way. This is a public spotlight kind of thing. All of us have projects that we will never get to finish, and this is most likely one of his. Users are allowed to criticize and jab admins and Kiacode is just this.


FWIW, it sounded like an insult to me. You took someone that is/was broken, made it seem like a bad thing, and then inferred that since Kiasyn wrote it, he had obviously done a bad job and was therefore some kind of lazy hack. We can check to see with DH whether I'm right or just being sour old Asy.

Katiara said:
Why was Davion in the wrong for bashing Kayle?
Davion broke one of the IMC2 rules. He displayed unwarranted hostility towards a user. Firstly, the comment about Kiacode was made by me, so if Davion was mad, he should have addressed it with me. If I was in the wrong by making said comment, he should have taken appropriate admin action rather allow his emotions to take over. After a nice talk, he displayed all of the traits he claims to dislike Crat for.


See above. Again, FWIW, I think Davion kept his cool much better than anyone else. But yeah, see above.

Katiara said:
Did Davion admit or apologize for his action and will he be punished?
Davion never once admitted wrong doing. He rather tried to give explanation saying Kayle was bashing Kiasyn first. Once again, I was the one that made the comment and secondly, if on IMC2 when someone violates the rules, you bash them rather than ban, why was Crat banned again? As of the time I disconnected my mud from IMC2, he had not apologized. At this point, I honestly doubt he will be punished for his actions.


I don't think Davion actually did anything wrong. His level of professionalism wasn't quite where I'd expect it to be if this was some kind of salaried moderator position on a paid service, but it isn't. Davion, a volunteer, came in and had a frank discussion about something that he apparently supports, but didn't actually do himself.


Katiara said:
Do you have a log of what happened last night?
Yes, I do. It is located here if you would like to read it.


Looks right.
08 Jun, 2010, Runter wrote in the 6th comment:
Votes: 0
I suggest anyone wanting the full context read the full log. It reads a little differently in full context. I'm not sure I'd classify the slow passive aggressive grind with "It was a very honest and open discussion."
08 Jun, 2010, Runter wrote in the 7th comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
FWIW, it sounded like an insult to me. You took someone that is/was broken, made it seem like a bad thing, and then inferred that since Kiasyn wrote it, he had obviously done a bad job and was therefore some kind of lazy hack. We can check to see with DH whether I'm right or just being sour old Asy.


I didn't see anything wrong with what she said. It may have been something negative, I guess, but at this point it's been an established running joke on IMC for a long, long time. The term Kiacode has been used (in some cases) lovingly in the past. That probably wasn't the way she intended it, but I don't think it was some type of outright attack. I'm not sure about the context that she was bringing up Kiasyn not maintaining megabot, or whatever, but just at face value I think it was okay.

That being said, the thing that struck me from reading the logs as inappropriate before this comment was made was the repeated pithy comments which amounted to personal attacks directed at Davion. At least 2 of those times they went unanswered, and from what I can tell that was during the "open and honest" part of the discussion.
08 Jun, 2010, Koron wrote in the 8th comment:
Votes: 0
Asylumius said:
I don't think Davion actually did anything wrong. His level of professionalism wasn't quite where I'd expect it to be if this was some kind of salaried moderator position on a paid service, but it isn't. Davion, a volunteer, came in and had a frank discussion about something that he apparently supports, but didn't actually do himself.

Exactly. Davion wasn't involved in the ban so getting mad at him for it is kind of ridiculous. I suppose it's fair to criticize his behavior in responding to the ban, but since he hasn't used any bold yellow text, I find it difficult to fault him for voicing his opinion.

Runter said:
I didn't see anything wrong with what she said. It may have been something negative, I guess, but at this point it's been an established running joke on IMC for a long, long time.

One man's running joke is another man's recurring attack. That it recurs doesn't make it any more benevolent. Every time I've heard it in the recent past, it has been used condescendingly as if to imply that anything that Kiasyn wrote never worked right. This doesn't strike me as innocuous.

The above being said:
shasarak said:
You know, when I started out reading this thread, I actually wanted to be on your side. I really did.
[snip]
But every post of yours that I've read in this thread has strengthened the feeling that I simply don't want to be on your side no matter what the original facts may have been. Everything you've said makes you sound like a conceited, self-satisfied, arrogant [man/woman] who feels that [personal pronoun] is entitled to behave in [a dickish way]

This post was originally addressed to Davion, but it applies as modified to most of the people who've been posting thus far.
08 Jun, 2010, Mudder wrote in the 9th comment:
Votes: 0
I agree with Koron's last statement. No one seems to see a problem with literally freaking out on others over IMC2 and cursing up a storm. Seriously, I'd love it if everyone could just chill out and act like adults. :unclesam:
08 Jun, 2010, Chris Bailey wrote in the 10th comment:
Votes: 0
I could have sworn that you and Kayle had been verbally abusive toward Davion for at least 30 minutes before he said anything back. I could be wrong, but that's how I saw it.
08 Jun, 2010, Asylumius wrote in the 11th comment:
Votes: 0
Chris Bailey said:
I could have sworn that you and Kayle had been verbally abusive toward Davion for at least 30 minutes before he said anything back. I could be wrong, but that's how I saw it.


I could be wrong, but I don't think I made any personal attacks. I argued various points of the drama, but I don't consider being argumentative to be the same thing as verbally abusive. For example, calling someone incompetent in their face I might consider verbal abuse.

If anyone thinks I broke the IMC2 rules then I think the IMC2 rules are too subjective and open-ended.
09 Jun, 2010, David Haley wrote in the 12th comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
If anyone thinks I broke the IMC2 rules then I think the IMC2 rules are too subjective and open-ended.

Words could not properly express the irony of this statement.
09 Jun, 2010, Asylumius wrote in the 13th comment:
Votes: 0
David Haley said:
Quote
If anyone thinks I broke the IMC2 rules then I think the IMC2 rules are too subjective and open-ended.

Words could not properly express the irony of this statement.


<3 u too
09 Jun, 2010, David Haley wrote in the 14th comment:
Votes: 0
See, you don't think you're making any personal attacks, right? And yet, your replies (to many people) are constantly mocking and taunting. But then, these perspectives are all just too subjective and open-ended, right?
09 Jun, 2010, Asylumius wrote in the 15th comment:
Votes: 0
If you think "<3 u too" is an ATTACK, then that just makes me roll my eyes. I'm not going to argue with you, though. Jump on me all you like. Let's just meet in the middle at I don't care what you think and vice versa. Your personality irks the fuck out of me and I don't really care what mine does to you. Now go plan your new and improved IMC2 network where everything will be better become DH can do no wrong. I'm taking a break from MB.
09 Jun, 2010, David Haley wrote in the 16th comment:
Votes: 0
I said it was mocking, just like your most recent post – although this time it also contained a rather direct and offensive personal attack.
09 Jun, 2010, Cratylus wrote in the 17th comment:
Votes: 0
Asylumius said:
Your personality irks the fuck out of me and I don't really care what mine does to you.


I think it would be nice if the title of this thread could be "Truth and Reconciliation" and if it
were to spark some kind of attempt to actually address grievances, rather than mine them
for bonus grief.

Asylumius said:
Now go plan your new and improved IMC2 network where everything will be better become DH can do no wrong. I'm taking a break from MB.


This is a really odd thing to say.

For the record, I have frequently and vigorously advocated for a unification of intermud networks.
It seems to me that fragmentation is not what is needed, but rather banding together, even if the
codebases and preferences differ.

If, however, the reigning admin philosophy on a network is "I got mine. You get yours." or even worse,
trying to encourage people admins personally dislike to leave just because you dislike them…then
maybe it's a diseased network that does indeed merit evacuation and isolation.

I dunno, I like to think that grown men can handle their differences and work together for the
hobby they love, but y'know…maybe they can't?

Maybe a separate network with less thinskinned vindictive administration is actually a good idea.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
09 Jun, 2010, kiasyn wrote in the 18th comment:
Votes: 0
Cratylus said:
For the record, I have frequently and vigorously advocated for a unification of intermud networks.
It seems to me that fragmentation is not what is needed, but rather banding together, even if the
codebases and preferences differ.


On this, you and I agree.
09 Jun, 2010, Chris Bailey wrote in the 19th comment:
Votes: 0
Asylumius said:
Chris Bailey said:
I could have sworn that you and Kayle had been verbally abusive toward Davion for at least 30 minutes before he said anything back. I could be wrong, but that's how I saw it.


I could be wrong, but I don't think I made any personal attacks. I argued various points of the drama, but I don't consider being argumentative to be the same thing as verbally abusive. For example, calling someone incompetent in their face I might consider verbal abuse.

If anyone thinks I broke the IMC2 rules then I think the IMC2 rules are too subjective and open-ended.



I should have been more specific. I meant Katiara and Kayle. I was actually replying to the OP and I didn't read the rest of the thread before hand.
09 Jun, 2010, Runter wrote in the 20th comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
I think it would be nice if the title of this thread could be "Truth and Reconciliation" and if it
were to spark some kind of attempt to actually address grievances, rather than mine them
for bonus grief.


Building combo points for the finisher.
0.0/24