21 Sep, 2009, Banner wrote in the 81st comment:
Votes: 0
Kayle said:
Hades_Kane said:
People keep calling this a "hidden" part of some rules, but the OP said that he included that in his speech about new builders and whatnot.


It is hidden, because it only comes up in his speech. And you only hear that speech **AFTER** you agree to build for him.

Katiara said:
Asylumius said:
He may only include that as part of his "Welcome Aboard" speech, but nonetheless, you haven't actually begun building to lose. At that point, you've still got nothing to lose by changing your mind and leaving.

It's lame in a crooked used car salesman kind of way perhaps, but it's not like he's fucking you at that point.

EDIT: Also, whats-his-name said the information was also in the helpfiles. RTF(builders)M before you begin? It sounds like he's giving them plenty of warning. What's he supposed to say? Yo Builder! I'm really happy for you and imma let you build, but imma keep ur areas for all time.. ALL TIME!! (and not let you have them).


Well, you are correct that he says it before assigning an area and at that point there is nothing to lose.

Although, it isn't in the help files. It is said once and only once while in the process of this over load of information.




SWGI Builderrules said:
Star Wars: Galactic Insights
<<<<<Building Rules>>>>>

1) NEVER load up or tamper with another Immortal's area.
2) All mobiles require clothing and descriptions.
3) Always use vnums to edit mobs, objects, or mob or object
programs. You can seriously damage other objects by not using vnums.
4) Devote as much time as possible to completing your assignment. No
one is required to work on Sundays.
5) Don't stand around building "Immortal Weapons" or "Special Mobs".
6) Secret areas and passages are fine. Secret areas and passages
that give mortals super items or stats are not.
7) If you don't know what a command does or you think you don't know
what it does, you probably don't. So don't mess with it.
8) If you mess up or need help, ask someone. Most of the 205
builders and Admins are trained builders, and we can help you.
9) If you don't have an area, ask for one. It's considered
inactiveness if you stand around with no area.
10) Lastly, enjoy yourself. Don't drive yourself insane building or
working. Have fun.
11) Likewise, don't use objects from other areas that you didn't
make inside your area. If you did not create the item inside the area your
building, then you can't use it. It creates dependacy and originality
issues.

Similiar helpfiles: rules, inactiveimms, immrules
builderrules2, builderrules3

NOTE: When you build an area here, it becomes the property of
Banner and SW:GI itself. Whether it is one(1) or two-thousand(2000)
vnums, it is ours. Should you ever leave, we will not under any
circumstances, remove the area. You may not have a copy of it. We do not
want our work on other MUDs, and your work will remain here as long as you
or even after should you leave or get fired. Do not bother asking to have
it removed if you leave, it will not be done. By beginning, editing, or
having an area here, you have thusly agreed to this and all rules
concerning the building of an area on this MUD.

Date Modified: Mon Mar 30 20:34:54 2009
Modified By: Banner


SWGI Disclaimer said:
[snip]
You are also agreeing to the rules of this MUD. They are viewable ingame
by typing HELP RULES and reading all of those and all attached files.
If you find that you do not agree with any of them once you are online,
you may destroy your character by typing suicide <password>. This will
permanetly remove your character from our game.
[snip]

Date Modified: Mon Oct 13 12:04:55 2008
Modified By: Banner


Try not to lie kthxbye.

EDIT: And I extend thanks to all the level-headed people here. At least there are some of us left.

EDIT 2: And my "little speech" involves me giving all the necessary helpfiles and asking the builder to read them before saying they agree to follow the rules. So if Katiara and Kayle did not read this, then it is beyond my problem that they agreed without reading.
21 Sep, 2009, Kayle wrote in the 82nd comment:
Votes: 0
Banner said:
Try not to lie kthxbye.

EDIT: And I extend thanks to all the level-headed people here. At least there are some of us left.


None of that was there while I was on the staff. It was the similar helpfiles and then the date modified.

And I thought you were leaving because you didn't need the drama?
21 Sep, 2009, Scoyn wrote in the 83rd comment:
Votes: 0
http://www.wipo.int/freepublications/en/... said:
The most important feature of any kind of property is that the owner may use it exclusively, i.e., as he wishes, and that nobody else can lawfully use it without his authorization. This does not, of course, mean that he can use it regardless of the legally recognized rights and interests of other members of society. Similarly the owner of copyright in a protected work may use the work as he wishes, and may prevent others from using it without his authorization. The rights granted under national laws to the owner of copyright in a protected work are normally exclusive rights to authorize a third party to use the work, subject to the legally recognized rights and interests of others.

There are two types of rights under copyright. Economic rights allow the rights owner to derive financial reward from the use of his works by others. Moral rights allow the author to take certain actions to preserve the personal link between himself and the work.

Most copyright laws state that the author or rights owner has the right to authorize or prevent certain acts in relation to a work. The rights owner of a work can prohibit or authorize:

* its reproduction in various forms, such as printed publications or sound recordings;
* the distribution of copies;
* its public performance;
* its broadcasting or other communication to the public;
* its translation into other languages;
* its adaptation, such as a novel into a screenplay.

These rights are explained in more detail in the following paragraphs.


And it's Kthxbai.
21 Sep, 2009, Banner wrote in the 84th comment:
Votes: 0
Kayle said:
Banner said:
Try not to lie kthxbye.

EDIT: And I extend thanks to all the level-headed people here. At least there are some of us left.


None of that was there while I was on the staff. It was the similar helpfiles and then the date modified.

And I thought you were leaving because you didn't need the drama?

Slander is against the site rules so I'm here defending myself since the Mods won't.
21 Sep, 2009, Kayle wrote in the 85th comment:
Votes: 0
Banner said:
Slander is against the site rules so I'm here defending myself since the Mods won't.


Lol.
21 Sep, 2009, Katiara wrote in the 86th comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
Similiar helpfiles: rules, inactiveimms, immrules
builderrules2, builderrules3

NOTE: When you build an area here, it becomes the property of
Banner and SW:GI itself. Whether it is one(1) or two-thousand(2000)
vnums, it is ours. Should you ever leave, we will not under any
circumstances, remove the area. You may not have a copy of it. We do not
want our work on other MUDs, and your work will remain here as long as you
or even after should you leave or get fired. Do not bother asking to have
it removed if you leave, it will not be done. By beginning, editing, or
having an area here, you have thusly agreed to this and all rules
concerning the building of an area on this MUD.

Date Modified: Mon Mar 30 20:34:54 2009
Modified By: Banner


That is so odd, I could have sworn the see also was the field right before date modified.

Totally missed the point though. I agreed with everyone about it being fine with not taking areas out and giving copies has lots of sides. My whole thing to begin with was who it belongs to, ie, can it go on other muds.

Also, I am not slandering you as a person, I brought up a potential issue for builder to be aware of. Something some people here do seem to think is an issue.

Also, just so you know slander involves saying false things. Considering you just copied the same chunk I started the post with it, it isn't false by any means.
21 Sep, 2009, Banner wrote in the 87th comment:
Votes: 0
Katiara said:
Also, just so you know slander involves saying false things. Considering you just copied the same chunk I started the post with it, it isn't false by any means.


Wikipedia said:
In law, defamationalso called calumny, libel (for written words), slander (for spoken words), and vilificationis the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image.

Making it out that I made up something and tried to hide it from everyone and then throw it at them when they quit is a statement that gives me a bad image. Just so you know, that's Slander.
21 Sep, 2009, Guest wrote in the 88th comment:
Votes: 0
Hairsplit: It would be libel, as these are printed words. Slander applies to spoken words. Both have truth as an absolute defense.
21 Sep, 2009, Hanaisse wrote in the 89th comment:
Votes: 0
Good grief, can't there be at least one thread in this entire forum that doesn't include insults/bashing/flaming/trolling/mud-slinging?

The context of this thread could have been an interesting read on moral and/or legal standards of Admins and area building in general but as soon as a name was put to it, it's just another case of the above. It's getting old folks.

The lesson learned here for any budding builders: If you're going to try your hand at building on someone else's MUD make sure you ask and understand what you're getting into first. I'm sure there's many Admin's out there that want to keep exclusive rights to your area (for what reason I don't know) and many others who don't. If you don't want to give away all your hard work, keep a copy (as previously mentioned), change a few room/mob names and voila - new area. Simple.
21 Sep, 2009, Asylumius wrote in the 90th comment:
Votes: 0
Hanaisse said:
Good grief, can't there be at least one thread in this entire forum that doesn't include insults/bashing/flaming/trolling/mud-slinging?


Hahahahahahaha. No. No there cannot.
21 Sep, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 91st comment:
Votes: 0
Note that if you agree to an exclusive license, but keep your work and use it elsewhere anyway, you are violating your end of the license. The solution is trivial: if you want to keep your rights, be careful with what you agree to. Don't be a license violator just because you feel like it, or because you don't happen to like the admin in question.
21 Sep, 2009, KaVir wrote in the 92nd comment:
Votes: 0
Mabus said:
The ToS and staff content agreements were written by a lawyer. I will take their word over yours.

It's not the wording of your ToS I've disagreed with, it's your assumption that people are automatically bound to it simply by playing your mud, without any proof of them having even read it let alone agreed to it. The law is pretty clear on the fact that "the transfer of exclusive rights is not valid unless that transfer is in writing and signed by the owner of the rights conveyed or such owners duly authorized agent". And while an email may be considered sufficient (at least within the US, although it's not been tested in court), your players aren't sending you emails handing over their rights, only your builders.

This is what Jacobs & Burleigh LLP say about the issue: "Although it is extremely likely that an assignment by electronic means bearing the electronic signature of the assignor will be given legal effect, I would still proceed with a little bit of caution, because Ballas has not been overruled, the ESign Act is still (relatively) new, and there is no case law applying the ESign Act to copyright assignments."

Ref: http://onlinepublishinglaw.com/may-a-cop...

Mabus said:
As to what is "irrelevant", that is just an opinion of yours, and has no legal basis. Just adding it to your post does not make it correct.

I said "It's also irrelevant whether you're transferring the copyright or exclusive rights, as both have the same (in writing and signed) requirement."

So which are you claiming "has no legal basis"? That the transfer of copyright needs to be in writing and signed, or that the transfer of exclusive rights needs to be in writing and signed?
21 Sep, 2009, shasarak wrote in the 93rd comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
shasarak said:
I'm not going to speculate about the legal position, here, but it seems to me that, from a moral perspective at least, the MUD owner's conduct is not that unreasonable

He's claimed ownership over the builders areas, then shut down the mud, flushing their hard work down the toilet. I really don't find that reasonable, and it's a brutal lesson for the poor people who have spent countless hours working on content for the mud.

Yeah, that's true enough; if the reason why you needed the areas in the first place is no longer valid then there's no moral case to be made for holding onto them.
21 Sep, 2009, shasarak wrote in the 94th comment:
Votes: 0
Katiara said:
I have boobs. Kayle does not.

I really don't see why we should accept either of those claims without photographic evidence to back it up. :cyclops:
21 Sep, 2009, Dean wrote in the 95th comment:
Votes: 0
shasarak said:
Katiara said:
I have boobs. Kayle does not.

I really don't see why we should accept either of those claims without photographic evidence to back it up. :cyclops:


The court moves to remove the people that attended the mudmeet as witnesses on the grounds that they were all drunk, the entirety of the event. :lol:
21 Sep, 2009, Igabod wrote in the 96th comment:
Votes: 0
For what it's worth, I worked as a builder on SWGI before Kayle was hired on and I do recall seeing that exact message in the help files, I also recall talking to Banner about this exact same subject before I actually built anything. I kept copies of my work as I did it, knowing that I wouldn't be allowed to have the .are file.

The .are file is NOT the property of the builder, the .are file is the result of the code formatting the information that was input by the builder into a usable form. Therefore, if anybody has any rights to the .are file, it's the person who wrote the OLC code. Considering that Banner has put a LOT of work into the OLC of SWGI, I'd say that would be him as well as whoever wrote the original OLC which he modified.

As for what people would want with a copy of their area even if they aren't allowed to use it anywhere else, they can use that area as inspiration for another area, or they can look at it to see how they handled a problem they may have encountered, or any number of other uses.
21 Sep, 2009, KaVir wrote in the 97th comment:
Votes: 0
Igabod said:
The .are file is NOT the property of the builder, the .are file is the result of the code formatting the information that was input by the builder into a usable form. Therefore, if anybody has any rights to the .are file, it's the person who wrote the OLC code. Considering that Banner has put a LOT of work into the OLC of SWGI, I'd say that would be him as well as whoever wrote the original OLC which he modified.


Microsoft put a lot of work into Word. But if I write a novel using Word, Microsoft doesn't own the copyright to my novel.

Banner might own the physical file, but owning a copy isn't the same as owning the copyright.
21 Sep, 2009, kiasyn wrote in the 98th comment:
Votes: 0
you also don't own word though, you own a license to use it
21 Sep, 2009, KaVir wrote in the 99th comment:
Votes: 0
kiasyn said:
you also don't own word though, you own a license to use it

I think you'll find Banner owns a licence to use OLC as well, but the distinction doesn't matter. Someone doesn't automatically gain the copyright to your work simply because you created that work using their computer, or their word processor, or their pen and paper, etc.
21 Sep, 2009, Mabus wrote in the 100th comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
It's not the wording of your ToS I've disagreed with, it's your assumption that people are automatically bound to it simply by playing your mud, without any proof of them having even read it let alone agreed to it.

From in our character creation sequence:
Quote
Terms of service can be found at http://throes.slayn.net/TOS.html
All players must read and agree to the TOS and rules before playing.
Press >>ENTER

So either they are in violation of the rules and Terms of Service when they play, or they are under the terms of it.

This is not dissimilar to how the "big boys" do it. Many games use an approach quite the same. We do it merely for the "CYOA" situations.

Until case law shows that this approach is not the proper one I will continue to use it. Granted, it is not perfect. But it is about the best you can do, short of having signed contracts notarized in person for each player and staff member, or some credit card check agreement (which would be both consideration and information verification).
80.0/115