27 Mar, 2009, Mabus wrote in the 1st comment:
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I have been doing some extreme modification to the combat system of our game, and have come to the point of trying to tackle character worn armor. This is just at the beginning stages of "brainstorming" for me, so I am open to any and all thoughts.

In our game it does have an armor rating, and even some resistance modifications based on materials (metal armors gain a negative mod for electric attacks, etc.).

But I want to separate it further. I thought of doing damage-type resistances (and still may), but figured to ask what other positive and negative influences armor could have.

Some things that come to mind to me are:
1) Adds direct numerical protection.
2) Damage reduction based on armor type and melee damage type.
3) Resistance modification to spell/other damage types.
4) Critical modifiers.
5) Class based (no mages in plate, type things).
6) Time to wear/unwear (to slow field armor swapping).

Any ideas more then welcome.
27 Mar, 2009, Cratylus wrote in the 2nd comment:
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I've got armor (powered space suit sorta thing) that
lets you breathe in space/underwater. Also identifies invis
creatures in the same room, gives you some readouts on
your global position.

You could have "magic" armor that does special stuff like that, maybe.

Other stuff that comes to mind:

* spiked armor that hurts melee attackers
* components (like mithril) that make it lighter but more expensive
* appearance modifiers to make the wearer more intimidating ( Sauron helmet…ooooo scary dont hurt me!)

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
27 Mar, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 3rd comment:
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Just ask Elanthis about armor and deflection / damage absorption. He'll give you a rant^H^H^H^Hlong, well-thought out explanation of why this is silly w.r.t. realism :tongue: (The useful point here being that this topic came up before earlier, maybe there's something useful in the other thread.)
27 Mar, 2009, elanthis wrote in the 4th comment:
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From a realistic standpoint (not always the best route with a game, no), here's some hints:

- Chain armor stopped swords and light thrusts. Anything else could chew right through it.
- Hardened leather could stop swords, but it fell apart pretty quickly.
- Plate armor stopped swords and thrusts, period. It led to the invention of the war mace (essentially a giant metal-punch) and the (rarely used) great-ax.
- Coats of plates, scale armor, studded leathers, lamellars, and so on all had their own properties; I'm not myself particularly familiar with most of them, but it's pretty easy to figure out their uses.
- No armor was ever truly effective against arrows. Archers were death for anyone on the battle field. Even plate could only deflect an arrow if it was a glancing hit at great distance.
- Armor was meant to be worn in layers, depending on century. All heavy armor required padding underneath to be comfortable and effective. Earlier plate armors left a lot of open areas which were meant to be covered with either a full chain hauberk or (later) patches of chain sewed into the gambeson, until very late century armors that had complete plate coverage.
- While techniques were developed for killing a fully armored man by piercing the narrow gaps in his armor, in truth a late-period fight with an armored knight pretty much required you to grapple him, pin him to the ground, and then stab him in an opening (usually an eye slit, arm pit, or kidney) with a dagger.
- Armor had grades of quality, with better armor made in later periods. The shape of armor has a huge impact on its effectiveness; armor with ridges were designed because it would make a heavy blow glance off instead of getting a solid hit, which increased the lifetime of the armor (and hence the lifetime of the wearer). A cheap breastplate might literally just be a slightly curved piece of metal with leather straps, but a quality late-period breasplate would have a stop rib, fluting, multiple lames, would cover front and back, and possibly include lames to cover the hips as well. Helmets likewise had shape given to the top (high-point, onion top, etc.) and to the face ("pointy" e.g. pig face, etc.) so that blows would glance off the head instead of land solidly.
- In general, armor stopped a hit entirely, or it broke.
- Damage reduction is not realistic (it makes for a fine game mechanic anyway!!) but armor endurance is _very_ realistic.
- Armor was expensive. A modern full quite of quality authentic armor would set you back anywhere from $10,000 to $40,000. And it's a lot easier to make armor today (you can order sheet metal and get it delivered by truck) than it was in centuries past. Armor and weapons were in fact the whole reason for the feudal system of government rising in Europe after the fall of Rome: rich land owners (kings and dukes and such) would give parcels of land to warriors who in turn would use the resources that gave them to purchase armor, weapons, horses, and training for their sons. Many armies of the day were made up entirely of nobles, and even in later days only the rich nobles had any kind of real armor. Peasants just flat out didn't have armor, it wasn't possible for them to even consider affording it. Simply making armor rare and expensive can make it more interesting to players, as well as being realistic.
- Armor is not one size fits all, especially with plate armors. In order to work properly (and to not kill your back) it needs to be in good condition and it needed to be fitted to the wearer. In general that would be annoying as hell for a game (I found armor! but I can't wear it. I can never wear anything I find), but if you have different races/species you can certainly make armor fit for difference size/shaped beings, possibly with the ability to take armor to a smith to be reworked (quite possible with real armor, albeit usually a last resort).
- Armor is very hard to get on and off. There was a reason knights had squires. In fact, I know it's not even possible for me to get my arms on all the way without help (hard to tie them on to your shoulder yourself), and it takes some tricky maneuvering to get 14th century breastplates on without help. Getting fully geared up easily takes 30 minutes if you're not rushing and you're not being helped much.
- Properly fitted armor does not really restrict one's movement. My swordmaster can do cartwheels and jumping-roundhouse kicks when fully geared up (granted, he's in great shape, has 20+ years medieval martial arts experience and 25+ years eastern martial arts experience – i can't even do a cartwheel in regular clothes). Armor doesn't even feel like it weighs a lot if fitted and worn properly, as the weight distributes evenly to proper "load bearing" points on your body (which is in part why you need the proper arming clothes in addition to the armor; you can't just toss a breastplate on over a shirt and expert it to work or feel right). However, armor is _hot_ in the sun, and can wear down your endurance pretty quickly. A visored helmet (especially with a gorget) can also restrict vision and breathing very much. Helmet visors can be raised or removed, and in truth many knights would just leave the visor off in combat to gain the added visibility at risk of getting stabbed in the face.
- Armor can be identifiying. Different styles of armor can from different regions, and even the embellishments on the armor could identify the local region you came from. This could be pretty important in social aspects of a game.

Now, from a purely fantasy point of view, you have a lot more options. Including of course ignoring any of the above you don't like (it's a game, not a simulation, go with what's fun, not what's realistic). You touched on a few yourself already, including:

- Magic resistance. Leather might resist lightning, but plate and chain surely wouldn't – they might even make lightning spells hurt more.
- Materials that alter the armor's properties. From even a realistic standpoint, different grades of metals affected weight and durability. My modern armor kit is mostly stainless steel, for example, because it's tougher, prettier, and I don't have to buff and oil it constantly. Aluminum armor is popular in some groups as well because it's 1/3 the weight of steel, and while not as strong, it's strong enough. I've also seen quite a bit of titanium armor (1/2 the weight of steel, yet stronger!), especially titanium chain and titanium gauntlets. This gives you a clear idea of what you can do with fantasy materials like Mithril or Adamantium. Even in history, different techniques were used to affect the metal. Some metals were tempered hotter making them harder but more brittle (Japanese swords are famous for being incredibly hard and thus holding a very fine edge, but being very brittle and relatively easy to completely ruin – no, they could not cut through metal, not even a little). Metal was sometimes blued or blackened to protect it from rust.
- Fantasy armors do not need to be clones of medieval armor. You can make armor that has whatever coverage or visual design you want. You can go super-huge 500lbs armor like Warhammer, you can go giant-spikes-and-shoulders like Anime, or you can mix the two together and go Warcraft, or come up with something else entirely.
- Armor can be magical or technologically-enhanced and grant abilities.
- Armor can affect other abilities. I never liked saying that a Wizard can't wear plate armor if he wants, for example – you could instead say that armor affects a Wizard's ability to cast. The armor chokes the flow of magic, restricts his movements (especailly with gauntlets), and so on.
- Knights never snuck around or crawled about in dungeons, but in a fantasy game with thieves and sneaking and the like, an obvious point is that armor is loud. Even chain. If you are wearing armor, you are going to be heard. There are tricks to the manufacture of armor to make it quieter, such as putting soft leather backing on lames of plate armor so it doesn't clank, and using fine chain and that doesn't rattle as much, which are not historically accurate but applicable to a fantasy setting.

In general, I would avoid putting too much emphasis on the numerical properties of armor. That leads to the arms race/rat wheel that almost every single RPG, MUD, and MMO suffers from. If armor is just a stack of numbers, then players constantly need to upgrade, and once upgraded all of the "lower level" content becomes boring and unimportant. Especially in a fantasy game you can make armor less about "how good it is" and more about "how widely applicable it is." For example, the starting player class of armor might just be useful as a little bit of protection against common attacks. The end-game armor might not be significantly better against regular attacks, but it might also protect against fire, lightning, magic, be quiet, have high endurance, be associated with a high-end guild or court, etc. The end-game players are then still threatened by early-game encounters, but new players still have to work their way up to end-game encounters. (The same approach can be applied to your skill system: instead of giving the player a ton of bonuses to combat, give him abilities that affect certain kinds of combat. e.g., instead of getting +10 to hit, give him a skill that gives him +10 vs giants. Getting that skill means that the player can now stand up against giants, but it offers him no advantage against an orc. That means that earning the skill opens up new content without invalidating old content.)
27 Mar, 2009, Sandi wrote in the 5th comment:
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Great post, elanthis, thanks!
27 Mar, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 6th comment:
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elanthis said:
- Properly fitted armor does not really restrict one's movement. My swordmaster can do cartwheels and jumping-roundhouse kicks when fully geared up (granted, he's in great shape, has 20+ years medieval martial arts experience and 25+ years eastern martial arts experience – i can't even do a cartwheel in regular clothes).

I'll need more convincing of this point because your "granted" is a pretty big thing to grant. Being in shape isn't the issue (well, it would be, but presumably most warriors are in pretty good shape), it's the 20+ years of experience and practice doing this stuff. In other words, I'm not sure it makes sense to make a claim about armor in general for even trained people, when basing that claim on observing a master of the art.

(EDIT: but yes, it was a very nice post – more information than the last one actually, I found!)
27 Mar, 2009, Mabus wrote in the 7th comment:
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Thank you Cratylus and elanthis.

Now to get all this down into a workable plan, code, test, debug and rinse.

Piece of cake!
27 Mar, 2009, Ssolvarain wrote in the 8th comment:
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Nice post.
27 Mar, 2009, Hanaisse wrote in the 9th comment:
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:surprised: Awesome… *makes notes*
27 Mar, 2009, Lyanic wrote in the 10th comment:
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The following is a slight expansion on one particular aspect of armor - encumbrance. Encumbrance, at least by my definition, is essentially a metric of armor weight/rigidity relative to strength/natural mobility. If you have implemented any form of variable speed in movement/combat or the onset of fatigue (with the appropriate effects/penalties), then high encumbrance, occurring from wearing too much heavy/rigid armor for your particular character, would tend to slow down and tire your character more so than light/flexible armor. If you ensure that the heavier, more rigid armors provide the highest defensive values, then this type of system provides an implicit balance choice between being a slow, defensive juggernaut versus being quicker and more mobile, though a bit squishier. This is just my two cents, based on experience implementing similar systems over the years.
28 Mar, 2009, Mabus wrote in the 11th comment:
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Lyanic said:
The following is a slight expansion on one particular aspect of armor - encumbrance. Encumbrance, at least by my definition, is essentially a metric of armor weight/rigidity relative to strength/natural mobility. If you have implemented any form of variable speed in movement/combat or the onset of fatigue (with the appropriate effects/penalties), then high encumbrance, occurring from wearing too much heavy/rigid armor for your particular character, would tend to slow down and tire your character more so than light/flexible armor. If you ensure that the heavier, more rigid armors provide the highest defensive values, then this type of system provides an implicit balance choice between being a slow, defensive juggernaut versus being quicker and more mobile, though a bit squishier. This is just my two cents, based on experience implementing similar systems over the years.

That is a very valid point.

Since I have been coding a timed non-auto form of combat it is a consideration. The time could be modified based on the armor-type and an appropriate skill for wearing the type of armor. Dexterity and encumbrance already figure into the time formula (as well as worn armor "weighing" less already coded in), but a lowering of dexterity for a worn armor-type until specific armor-skill thresholds are reached might be an option.
28 Mar, 2009, Igabod wrote in the 12th comment:
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It's just an idea that's sorta related, but look at morrowind and oblivion. they have 3 different classes of armor which are good for various things. If you are wearing a leather jerkin and have the light armor skill you would have more ac (protection) than you would if you didnt have the light armor skill. Same for medium armor and heavy armor. Your level of skill with each type of armor increases the amount of protection it gives you due to your knowledge of how to utilize said armor.
28 Mar, 2009, Dean wrote in the 13th comment:
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Not to mention that Light armor is for people that like to move around pretty fast while heavy armor is for tanks (IE: All my characters) and medium is the balance between speed and good protection.
28 Mar, 2009, Igabod wrote in the 14th comment:
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I figured that was already stated by elanthis's elaborate post. Though, you could add a movement bonus for lightweight, or a movement restriction (ie. costs more move points to go from room to room with heavy armor than light) for heavy

[edit to add] oooOOOoOoOoOO spooky, post number 666 for me.
28 Mar, 2009, Ssolvarain wrote in the 15th comment:
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Swimming would probably be close to impossible if you were wearing plate, too.
28 Mar, 2009, Igabod wrote in the 16th comment:
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I'd say it's more than close. Chain-mail would be close to impossible and that would be the easiest of the metal armors to swim in.
28 Mar, 2009, Ssolvarain wrote in the 17th comment:
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Wonder how hard it'd be to crawl out of chainmail, though.
28 Mar, 2009, Idealiad wrote in the 18th comment:
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Does anyone have a source to quote regarding swimming in plate armor? Why would it be close to impossible for a fit person to do it? Granted, they may not be able to do it for very long.
28 Mar, 2009, Lyanic wrote in the 19th comment:
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Idealiad said:
Does anyone have a source to quote regarding swimming in plate armor? Why would it be close to impossible for a fit person to do it? Granted, they may not be able to do it for very long.

I don't have a source, but there are two factors to consider: buoyancy and range of motion. The addition of a dense material like metal will sharply decrease the overall buoyancy of your body, thus making it difficult to stay afloat, and therefore requiring extra energy to fight against the inclination to sink. Also, wearing plate armor has a tendency to limit the range of motion in the shoulder and hip joints, making the biomechanical motions of swimming a bit difficult to begin with.
28 Mar, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 20th comment:
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Lyanic said:
Also, wearing plate armor has a tendency to limit the range of motion in the shoulder and hip joints, making the biomechanical motions of swimming a bit difficult to begin with.

c.f. Elanthis's post. Besides, you don't need to do full proper competitive strokes – if the question is just "can you swim without drowning", of course.

Lyanic said:
The addition of a dense material like metal will sharply decrease the overall buoyancy of your body, thus making it difficult to stay afloat, and therefore requiring extra energy to fight against the inclination to sink

Now this I think is the real reason. Adding 50+ pounds of dense, dense material all over your body will basically kill your buoyancy and cause you to sink rapidly. Anybody who's gone diving knows what a difference even just a few kg can make in terms of your buoyancy.
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