04 Mar, 2009, Scandum wrote in the 1st comment:
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I'm wondering if there's a difference between a moo/mush/muck client and a mud client, and if so, what are the notable / common differences?
05 Mar, 2009, elanthis wrote in the 2nd comment:
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I don't believe there is. A quick Google search for "mush client" brought up "MUSHClient… Freeware MUD Client." After that is SimpleMU, which advertises itself as a client all MU*-style games. Then comes AuroraMUSH's client recommendations page, with zMUD first on the list.

A MUSH is no different than a MUD in terms of user interface, other than perhaps having a strong need for a convenient code editor and/or debugging interface that interfaces with the server seemlessly. (And I'm not aware of any such client existing.)
05 Mar, 2009, Zeno wrote in the 3rd comment:
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Well MUSHclient isn't for MUSHes (not a "moo/mush/muck client"). It's for anything, since it says MU* client.
05 Mar, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 4th comment:
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MUSHclient is in fact one of the more technically correct clients out there, for whatever that is worth to you. It has a tendency to actually implement standards correctly, unlike other popular clients. :wink:
05 Mar, 2009, Tyche wrote in the 5th comment:
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The definition of mud, mu* and m* varies depending on who you are talking to.
Likewise there's really no rhyme or reason to associating mud, mu* or m* to clients.
05 Mar, 2009, Igabod wrote in the 6th comment:
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frankly they're all the same though, it's a Multiplayer Online Text-based Game so MOTG would probably be a better descriptor than MUD. The only reason anybody calls them muds is because of the first online text-based game called Multiple User Dungeon (i think). It was basically just an online version of dungeons and dragons. The other names, mush, mux etc. sprang from that.
05 Mar, 2009, KaVir wrote in the 7th comment:
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Igabod said:
The only reason anybody calls them muds is because of the first online text-based game called Multiple User Dungeon (i think). It was basically just an online version of dungeons and dragons.

Multi-User Dungeon, but "Dungeon" didn't come from Dungeons and Dragons - it came from a single player game called "Dungeon" (better known today by its development name "Zork").

Igabod said:
The other names, mush, mux etc. sprang from that.

MUSH is a codebase derived from TinyMUD, in the same way that Circle is a codebase derived from DikuMUD. Both were inspired by AberMUD, which in turn was inspired by MUD. Thus it goes:

MUD -> AberMUD -> DikuMUD -> Circle -> TBA

MUD -> AberMUD -> TinyMUD -> MUSH -> MUX

Does anyone know if there's a difference between a Circle/TBA client and a MUD client?
05 Mar, 2009, Dean wrote in the 8th comment:
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Igabod said:
frankly they're all the same though, it's a Multiplayer Online Text-based Game so MOTG would probably be a better descriptor than MUD. The only reason anybody calls them muds is because of the first online text-based game called Multiple User Dungeon (i think). It was basically just an online version of dungeons and dragons. The other names, mush, mux etc. sprang from that.


I would agree with MOTG being a better descriptor than MUD, MUSH etc. You could think of them as sub-categories of the broader MOTG. But would there be much support for this though?
05 Mar, 2009, Igabod wrote in the 9th comment:
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there would have been had we not all agreed to call them mud/mux/mush. but since everybody is pretty set in their ways with calling it one of those, it'd be hard to convert it now. After all, more than 20 years have gone by with these types of games being called mud. mux and mush were more recent developments, but there's still over a decade of those being the accepted terms. I myself would prefer to call it a MOTG but that's harder to say than mud. Mud confuses non-mudders when I tell them I'm playing a mud. They tend to think I left a word out or something and think I'm talking about playing in the mud.

I think from now on I'll use the term MOTG instead of mud. Lets add a little more confusion to this already confused hobbyist community :)
05 Mar, 2009, Dean wrote in the 10th comment:
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Igabod said:
there would have been had we not all agreed to call them mud/mux/mush. but since everybody is pretty set in their ways with calling it one of those, it'd be hard to convert it now. After all, more than 20 years have gone by with these types of games being called mud. mux and mush were more recent developments, but there's still over a decade of those being the accepted terms. I myself would prefer to call it a MOTG but that's harder to say than mud. Mud confuses non-mudders when I tell them I'm playing a mud. They tend to think I left a word out or something and think I'm talking about playing in the mud.

I think from now on I'll use the term MOTG instead of mud. Lets add a little more confusion to this already confused hobbyist community :)


I'll start doing it too, other than the obvious history of the mentioned terms, I see no reason not to use MOTG. It'd probably be easier to use when dealing with non-MUdders.
05 Mar, 2009, KaVir wrote in the 11th comment:
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Dean said:
I'll start doing it too, other than the obvious history of the mentioned terms, I see no reason not to use MOTG.


I run a Multiplayer Online Text-based Environment (MOTE) instead, so I'll use MOT* to refer to our combined genres, okay?
05 Mar, 2009, Igabod wrote in the 12th comment:
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awesome, more confusion :) Just what the world needs. btw, it's still a game so MOTG would still fit. Though MOTE covers any MOTG as well, they're pretty much interchangeable.
05 Mar, 2009, Sandi wrote in the 13th comment:
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elanthis said:

" A MUSH is no different than a MUD in terms of user interface, other than perhaps having a strong need for a convenient code editor and/or debugging interface that interfaces with the server seemlessly.  (And I'm not aware of any such client existing.) "

tinyfugue and SimpleMU provide a /grab command that reads any attribute and places it in the output window for easy editing. They both work with my 'fudge' code (found around the 'net as Fugue Edit Plus) and SimpleMU has the password part built-in.

You can't do that with MUSHClient last I tried, and Zugg would never listen to me. :(


As to the term "MU*", it's a little bit of an in joke, and a lot of ignorance. Those that object to it tend to be fans of Bartle. (Those people include Amberyl and Javelin, BTW.) It's difficult to find a term that seems to include both TinyMUX and PennMUSH.

Still, doesn't it seem like there should be a term to describe a game without mobs?
05 Mar, 2009, Scandum wrote in the 14th comment:
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Bartle can price himself lucky that he forgot to delete MIST when he left Essex in 1987, or we wouldn't be calling the genre MUD to begin with because without MIST AberMUD wouldn't have made the jump to the USA in 1989.

I think MCP is a Tiny protocol as well. The whole MU* thing is pretty odd in my opinion, I've noticed how Tinies have their own little communities where the so called 'muds' aren't exactly welcome, but that apparently doesn't work the other way around cause they're all over the mud sites, which is kind of pathetic.
05 Mar, 2009, Dean wrote in the 15th comment:
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Scandum said:
Bartle can price himself lucky that he forgot to delete MIST when he left Essex in 1987, or we wouldn't be calling the genre MUD to begin with because without MIST AberMUD wouldn't have made the jump to the USA in 1989.

I think MCP is a Tiny protocol as well. The whole MU* thing is pretty odd in my opinion, I've noticed how Tinies have their own little communities where the so called 'muds' aren't exactly welcome, but that apparently doesn't work the other way around cause they're all over the mud sites, which is kind of pathetic.


I believe that is called double standards. Or something along those lines. :stare:
05 Mar, 2009, KaVir wrote in the 16th comment:
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Sandi said:
Still, doesn't it seem like there should be a term to describe a game without mobs?


You mean like Assault and Genocide? I believe the term "pure PK" would suffice ;)
06 Mar, 2009, Tyche wrote in the 17th comment:
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KaVir said:
MUD -> AberMUD -> TinyMUD -> MUSH -> MUX


MUD -> AberMud -> Monster -> TinyMUD -> MUSH -> MUX

I'm not altogether certain that Monster was inspired by AberMUD, however it do seem likely.
However the Monster sources were made public in Nov. 88 over Usenet, but the AberMud not until July 89.
06 Mar, 2009, Dean wrote in the 18th comment:
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I think it is important to see MOTG (Or MOT* as Kavir put it :smirk:) is that it would be an umbrella term. Much like MMO is. MMORPG would be under the Umbrella term of MMO for instance. (Even though all the MMORPG's I have seen claim that term, appear to all have non-existent role play, WoW for example.) So it makes sense at least in dealing with people outside the MUD community to use it (either term)

Yeah, this post was so much better in my head while I was in the shower. But somewhere between there and my PC it degraded somewhat. :lol:
06 Mar, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 19th comment:
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The problem with picking a new name that might indeed be more descriptive of what the games really are is that people won't have heard of it and therefore will not understand it.
06 Mar, 2009, Dean wrote in the 20th comment:
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Quote
The problem with picking a new name that might indeed be more descriptive of what the games really are is that people won't have heard of it and therefore will not understand it.


While this is true, when considering the intended audience it would most likely be used in regards to, they have generally as little understanding of MUD or MU*, at least from my personal experiences.
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