17 Nov, 2008, Kayle wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
Dean said:
and may in the future start a new project based on the Elder scrolls (and at the same forfeit what vestiges of my life remain :tongue:)


The Elder Scrolls games are basically single-player MUDs with graphics anyway. Shouldn't be too hard to make a MUD out of them, Though, building all of the provinces of Tamriel could be a bit of a challenge. Especially with the depth that Bethesda alread has in the existing games. (I personally would hate to be the one who has to recreate all the books. Morrowind has some 80+ unique titles by my last count. :lol:)

But all in all, a lot of my MUDs systems, assuming I follow what blueprints I already have, draw heavy influence from the way Bethesda handled certain aspects of the Elder Scrolls games. I'd like to see someone take the Oblivion CS and make a mod that includes the whole of Tamriel. Or even just see Bethesda make an MMO of the Elder Scrolls world. I'd seriously love to see what they could do in that regard.
17 Nov, 2008, Ssolvarain wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
This is Morrowind, alone:

* 6 Lockpics (1 of each type)
* 6 Probes (1 of each type)
* 6 Repair Items (1 of each type)
* 21 Apparatus (1 of each type)
* 94 Ingredients (includes all ingredients)
* 259 Creature Types
* 279 Armor (1 for each peice of equippable armor)
* 484 Weapons (this includes every equippable weapon)
* 509 Articles of Clothing (this includes rings and amulets etc)
* 535 Misc Items (this includes every other item you can pick up)
* 573 Books (1 for each full book or small note of any kind)
* 2,674 NPC's (1 for each named or generic NPC)

That's a LOT of stuff. And that's only Vvardenfeld, if I remember the name correctly. Not to mention that the expansion items aren't even listed…



The cross-area style of many Elder Scrolls quests are something that I've never really seen in MUDs, mainly due to the lack of variable usage in progs and the problems with resetting things across different area files. My experience is mainly only in DIKU derivatives, however.
17 Nov, 2008, Dean wrote in the 3rd comment:
Votes: 0
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I personally would hate to be the one who has to recreate all the books. Morrowind has some 80+ unique titles by my last count.)

That's one of the easier bits. Every book in the Elder scrolls series has been painstakingly recreated for peoples viewing pleasure on the Imperial library site, thankfully.

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I'd like to see someone take the Oblivion CS and make a mod that includes the whole of Tamriel. Or even just see Bethesda make an MMO of the Elder Scrolls world. I'd seriously love to see what they could do in that regard.

Tamriel Rebuilt has been working on a similar goal since the Morrowind CS was released. I doubt they will ever be able to all of Tamriel though, I've seen how much work has gone into what they've already released and I'm glad I'm not in their shoes.

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Dean said:
and may in the future start a new project based on the Elder scrolls (and at the same forfeit what vestiges of my life remain )


I feel the need to rephrase that, it will be the next logical step in the Elder Scrolls series. If I give too much thought to the possibilites after Oblivion, I tend to stand unanimated with the exception of drool, for hours on end. :lol:

For me, there are two major things to consider in starting this project; 1) The code aspect: I'm no coder, I've dabbled before but not enough to be confident in this area. And next year I begin working towards getting a diploma in Website design and I doubt my brain can handle learning to code as well as java and the other three or 4 languages we're being taught in that class. So I'll probaly have to find help in that respect.

2) Approaching the building: Do you try and painstakingly create the provinces like Bethesda has as to preserve the gameplay, or restrict it to more important areas; cities, dungeons, roads etc. I prefer the first option.. I always loved being able to go anywhere (within the province limits of course) but unless there is some code (or can be written) that can autogenerate the terrain based on a provided map… it could take a good ten + years realistically to build all of Tamriel.
17 Nov, 2008, Chris Bailey wrote in the 4th comment:
Votes: 0
Dean said:
I doubt my brain can handle learning to code as well as java and the other three or 4 languages we're being taught in that class.

I'm not quite sure I understand that statement. If you are learning java and three or four other languages, you ARE learning to program(code). Did you mean you didn't think you would be able to learn C/C++ while learning other languages? If that is the case, I'll let you in on a little secret. Once you learn one language, learning more just gets easier and easier(In my opinion). Also, other alternatives exist for mud servers that use higher level languages, including one very well made one that uses one of the most quickly rising web development languages around, Ruby! Check out Teensymud that Tyche mentioned earlier…if you can learn java, you can learn Ruby. =)
17 Nov, 2008, Dean wrote in the 5th comment:
Votes: 0
Ssolvarain said:
This is Morrowind, alone:

* 6 Lockpics (1 of each type)
* 6 Probes (1 of each type)
* 6 Repair Items (1 of each type)
* 21 Apparatus (1 of each type)
* 94 Ingredients (includes all ingredients)
* 259 Creature Types
* 279 Armor (1 for each peice of equippable armor)
* 484 Weapons (this includes every equippable weapon)
* 509 Articles of Clothing (this includes rings and amulets etc)
* 535 Misc Items (this includes every other item you can pick up)
* 573 Books (1 for each full book or small note of any kind)
* 2,674 NPC's (1 for each named or generic NPC)

That's a LOT of stuff. And that's only Vvardenfeld, if I remember the name correctly. Not to mention that the expansion items aren't even listed…



The cross-area style of many Elder Scrolls quests are something that I've never really seen in MUDs, mainly due to the lack of variable usage in progs and the problems with resetting things across different area files. My experience is mainly only in DIKU derivatives, however.


Those figures are frightening… lol I've been playing Morrowind on and off for years and even now there are still new things I am discovering in Vvardenfeld. The objects themselves, I don't think would pose too big of a problem. The way I see it, the best way to handle it, is the way Bethesda have done so pretty much. For example the weapons and armor are sorted into their categories (material and weapon/armor type, with the damage/ac coded in) so with this, creating the many generic magic items found in the game are as simple as naming it and adding the enchantment, with the added bonus of keeping everything relatively balanced. (ie: Iron armour pieces give the same AC bonus no matter where they are bought or whom they have been made by ((with exception of heavy armour skill and the equipment condition of course.))

The same principles can be applied to clothing and furniture too (except that a new 'set' could be created for each province to reflect their styling etc)

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I'm not quite sure I understand that statement. If you are learning java and three or four other languages, you ARE learning to program(code). Did you mean you didn't think you would be able to learn C/C++ while learning other languages?


Yes, thats what I meant.
17 Nov, 2008, David Haley wrote in the 6th comment:
Votes: 0
The problem with Morrowind/Oblivion is that it is very player-centric: the world revolves around the events driven by the single player. Any recreation in a persistent multiplayer environment would be necessity look quite different. From a gameplay perspective, it would be challenging to let every player have the fully open leveling system in which essentially the sky is the limit. I'm not sure if that's actually a bad thing, but it's something you'd need to think about.

Morrowind/Oblivion's handling of objects is very clever (and yet dirt simple/obvious when you think about it). Instead of having a model where each area/zone has to recreate its own catalog, you have a global catalog that everybody can draw from. This is why it's easy (or easier) to have a very large object catalog: a lot of the work is centralized and consolidated.

EDIT:
And re: languages, I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you understand the concepts, going to C++ from Java isn't a huge difference. The main problems are that you'll have to understand when to free/delete objects, and how to get around without Java's massive standard library. (The STL exists but is far less nice to use, IMO.)
17 Nov, 2008, Kayle wrote in the 7th comment:
Votes: 0
Mass Response to everything while I slept, bear with me. :P

Ssolvarain said:
* 6 Lockpics (1 of each type)
* 6 Probes (1 of each type)
* 6 Repair Items (1 of each type)
* 21 Apparatus (1 of each type)
* 94 Ingredients (includes all ingredients)
* 259 Creature Types
* 279 Armor (1 for each peice of equippable armor)
* 484 Weapons (this includes every equippable weapon)
* 509 Articles of Clothing (this includes rings and amulets etc)
* 535 Misc Items (this includes every other item you can pick up)
* 573 Books (1 for each full book or small note of any kind)

As has been said, these can be created in a global object pool, rather than in the individual areas, making the numbers seem considerably less daunting. I have roughly that many items slated for a pair of cities on MW. Now for the Creature Types, that's not so hard either, You make a global creature pool and randomly pull monsters from that.

Ssolvarain said:
* 2,674 NPC's (1 for each named or generic NPC)


This would likely be the hardest part of recreating everything but the world from Morrowind. Because unlike the other stuff, you can't just make a pool, and then spawn instances. Each of those is going to take considerable work, because not only do they have to adequately reflect the npc they represent, but they also have to balance out. And I dunno about you, but balancing out 2,674 mobs doesn't sound like a job I want. :P

Dean said:
Tamriel Rebuilt has been working on a similar goal since the Morrowind CS was released. I doubt they will ever be able to all of Tamriel though, I've seen how much work has gone into what they've already released and I'm glad I'm not in their shoes.

I should have done a little digging before opening my mouth it seems. :P I don't currently have Oblivion available for play, mainly because my laptop doesn't enjoy games, so I only play what I can on any of my consoles for the most part. On that note, I have recently fallen in to playing Morrowind on the XBox again though. If someone is actually attempting to recreate the whole of Tamriel in Oblivion, I'll be willing to give that a try. :D

DavidHaley said:
The problem with Morrowind/Oblivion is that it is very player-centric: the world revolves around the events driven by the single player. Any recreation in a persistent multiplayer environment would be necessity look quite different. From a gameplay perspective, it would be challenging to let every player have the fully open leveling system in which essentially the sky is the limit. I'm not sure if that's actually a bad thing, but it's something you'd need to think about.


That's a really good point. And probably why Bethesda hasn't yet made the leap to MMOs. The game environment would completely change if suddenly there were 1.6 million Nerevarines for instance. :P In essence if you take an Elder Scrolls game, and remove the main quest, and just give people the open endedness of the game itself, you might have a solid starting point for a MMO.
17 Nov, 2008, David Haley wrote in the 8th comment:
Votes: 0
The NPCs are only deceptively unique. There is a lot of overlap in dialogue (based on various parameters like race, "class", city of origin, great house, etc.) The names are probably even randomly generated. I don't have any numbers, but of the 2.5k NPCs I suspect that only a relatively small number are really fleshed out (mainly the ones involved in non-trivial quests).

The mobs are all balanced based on their parameters. That's another smart thing they do: they don't often give attributes to individual mobs but instead let them be generated based on the leveling system (which takes the player's level into account). Frankly, I think that the MUD mindset of assigning specific attributes to every last mob and object is just asking for trouble (and in many cases, it actually creates trouble).
17 Nov, 2008, Idealiad wrote in the 9th comment:
Votes: 0
I definitely agree in principle that mob and item templating from a set of global parameters makes more sense when you're building mud zones. I've never played Morrowind or Oblivion, so by generated based on the leveling system do you mean the strength of mobs falls on a consistent curve based on the character's level? Do they multiply a base strength by mob type (like a challenge mob, boss mob, fodder mob, or whatever)?
17 Nov, 2008, David Haley wrote in the 10th comment:
Votes: 0
Yes, you have mob types, so that areas will have some mobs that are tougher than others. But individual mob types grow stronger as the character does, and you also get more powerful mob types. A level 10 character faces an easier fire atronach than a level 30 character, but also, a level 30 character is more likely to face tougher mobs. (e.g. atronachs instead of scamps). Equipment-using mobs will have better equipment.

The system has ups and downs; it means that you always an an interesting challenge, but it also means that as a newbie, you face easy mobs no matter where you go, and as a high-level character, even totally dumb bandits are all decked out in advanced, fancy equipment that costs thousands of gold. It means that as a newbie you can't challenge yourself by going to "hard" dungeons; as a high-level character returning to early zones or just starting the main quest, the very beginning of the game is full of super-advanced monsters.

Most annoyingly, perhaps, non-combat oriented characters get their tails kicked as they advance in levels, for the first many levels, because mobs get harder and harder whereas the character's skills are in other things.
17 Nov, 2008, Guest wrote in the 11th comment:
Votes: 0
Kayle said:
I should have done a little digging before opening my mouth it seems. :P I don't currently have Oblivion available for play, mainly because my laptop doesn't enjoy games, so I only play what I can on any of my consoles for the most part. On that note, I have recently fallen in to playing Morrowind on the XBox again though. If someone is actually attempting to recreate the whole of Tamriel in Oblivion, I'll be willing to give that a try. :D


Yes, a team is attempting to recreate the whole of Tamriel for the Morrowind game. Parts of that same team have crossed over to doing the same for Oblivion as well. Reality has to set in at some point though. Creating something that big with the current functional level of the Construction Set is impractical. Between that and the fact that the project hasn't got 100 developers working on it as their only task and you can see why after 5 years they still aren't done :)

Some other folks have realized it may well be impossible and have instead concentrated their efforts on provinces rather than the whole continent. Last I checked the Hammerfell guys are probably the closest ones to getting something done. The Eleswyr guys aren't far behind them, but they had the advantage of not needing to manually generate their worldspace since >90% of Eleswyr is available on the Oblivion map already.

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That's a really good point. And probably why Bethesda hasn't yet made the leap to MMOs. The game environment would completely change if suddenly there were 1.6 million Nerevarines for instance. :P In essence if you take an Elder Scrolls game, and remove the main quest, and just give people the open endedness of the game itself, you might have a solid starting point for a MMO.


I think the major reason they haven't made the leap just yet is because the fanbase would rebel. Not because they can't reproduce it using the same player-centric methods. It won't be happening with anything up to and including Fallout 3 though. However rumors persist in some corners that TES V will be an MMO. If it is, then I'll be finding something else to play.

And as far as the level scaling system, yes, it's pretty bad as far as realism is concerned. Eventually when everything you face is equipped with the best stuff in the game it becomes rather silly. There are overhaul systems created though that correct the problems and allow for you to have the challenge of walking into someplace you really shouldn't be in yet.
17 Nov, 2008, Kayle wrote in the 12th comment:
Votes: 0
Samson said:
However rumors persist in some corners that TES V will be an MMO. If it is, then I'll be finding something else to play.


Are you saying you'd abandon the series just because they tried a multiplayer side instead of a single player? :surprised: Are you afraid of playing with other people!? :tongue:
17 Nov, 2008, David Haley wrote in the 13th comment:
Votes: 0
Samson said:
Not because they can't reproduce it using the same player-centric methods

You can't really create a persistent multiplayer world with main quests revolving around individual players. It just wouldn't really make sense. You'd have to totally change the storyline to accommodate the fact that you've got hundreds of players running around. Basically, you couldn't have a "main quest" type of thing anymore, although many of the side quests would be entirely applicable (but not e.g. the ones about running a guild).

It is this ability to write powerful player-centric stories that makes single-player games still relevant. MMORPGs give you lots of things but you just can't get this in an MMORPG [1].


[1] unless you have some crazy active staff pounding out new storyline content as fast as the players can consume it…
17 Nov, 2008, Dean wrote in the 14th comment:
Votes: 0
Given enough thought and attention the quest side of things shouldn't be too difficult MUD wise. At the start, there's the option of writing up enough side quests to tie people over (things like Guilds) until such a point the playerbase is capable of doing it themselves eg: like when someone becomes a high enough rank in the fighters guild that they would be handing out assignments to other members, these could just be decided by the person or hopefully, some other lot has contacted the guild with the need to clear out a Den of necromancers or what have you. I don't see this happening until the playerbase has grown a bit though… (without too much Immortal interference)

Main quests? More difficult to pull off but still possible.. before I go into detail about ways of potentially achieving this… I'll write up the underlying story line I had in mind for an Elder Scrolls MUD (set after the events of oblivion)

"Just over a year since the passing of Martin Septim, last of the Septim bloodline, the Empire and Tamriel are in disarray. Tensions soar to new heights out in the provinces as rumors of ceding from the Empire or outright rebellion pass by the agents of the Blades ever more frequently. Chancelor Ocato does his best to keep the empire together but he is stretched thin. The people want an heir to be found, they demand a strong Septim to be seated on the imperial throne.

Believing that Cyrodil itself is relatively safe, Ocato has left the legions out in the provinces, surely why the empire has, thus far remained intact. But there is a threat from within, in particular some of the Senate, fat and greedy on Septims, have secretly been building up their power, in some cases subtly derailing any search for an heir.

Even as the Empire threatens to tear itself apart in a bloody civil war, an ancient enemy of Tamriel lies in wait, preparing for another invasion."

Anyway, I guess for the most part main quests would just have to be done with immortal 'interference'. With the possibility of being able to rise to a seat of power in the provinces, Tamriel can be in the players hands. Hell, when all is said and done, the fourth era might begin, abreat of a new Imperial bloodline.
18 Nov, 2008, Idealiad wrote in the 15th comment:
Votes: 0
One thing that could make main quests in a cRPG -> mud remake more doable is not to make a main quest about each character, but rather to play to the strengths of the mud genre and make main quests about small (2-5 PCs) bands of heroes. Obviously there are issues with this approach as well but it could make things easier.
18 Nov, 2008, Guest wrote in the 16th comment:
Votes: 0
Kayle said:
Are you saying you'd abandon the series just because they tried a multiplayer side instead of a single player? :surprised: Are you afraid of playing with other people!? :tongue:


Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Bethesda's strong suit is single player RPGs with their open-endedness and great story telling. David pointed out some aspects of why it wouldn't go over well assuming the game structure didn't change to become MMOish. I personally can't stand the kind of environment an MMO inevitably becomes. And it's not a matter of being afraid to play with other people. It's being able to play with others who don't want to see me dead every 3rd encounter.
18 Nov, 2008, David Haley wrote in the 17th comment:
Votes: 0
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Anyway, I guess for the most part main quests would just have to be done with immortal 'interference'. With the possibility of being able to rise to a seat of power in the provinces, Tamriel can be in the players hands.

This is all well and good for the first batch of players. But eventually these quests will be accomplished, heroes will be designated, and leaders will be chosen. What happens to new blood, or to people who want to start new characters?

Any quest that involves persistent changes to the world – which means a very large swath of interesting, "story-driving" quests – serves a basically one-time purpose. It exists, it is completed, the story advances. You need a build team active enough to provide new content as old content is exhausted.

There's a reason why MMORPGs don't have things like this in their world: it is very hard to keep up.

Now, this isn't to say that you can't have power structures and put things into the players' hands. It just means that your world itself shouldn't be providing the content: it should provide the mechanisms that allow players to create content.

A simple example is to have some automated recording of "interesting" events that people can look back on as a history of the realm, if anything just to brag about accomplishments.
18 Nov, 2008, Dean wrote in the 18th comment:
Votes: 0
I guess you misunderstood what I meant or it just didn't come across as intended, David. Just because through such quests, heroes & leaders are designated, doesn't mean they are permanent. If a new player has ambitions on becoming the provincial leader of Morrowind, for example and they don't have the strength to remove the current leader from power, then they could just pay a visit to their local Morag Tong guild hall. I'm sure for a kind donation, the servants of Mephala will kindly remove the quarry. Of course the option of the Dark Brotherhood might exist but their practice of kidnapping argonian hatchlings to raise as assassins disgusts me!

Or, you might be that disillusioned servant that has finally had enough. Next time you are to deliver a meal, just mix in a strong batch of bittergreen into the food. Or seek out a group of players playing as bandits. They might be all too interested in having information pertaining to say, the route the Lord is taking to travel elsewhere. For most bandits, the lure of easy septims would be too great to resist.

Just a few examples, hopefully that makes it clearer.
18 Nov, 2008, David Haley wrote in the 19th comment:
Votes: 0
So are you saying that there is permanent death of some kind? All it takes to get somebody killed is to hire an assassin or two? Where do newbies get the money to make it worth it for the assassins? What do the assassins do with their money? Who keeps the assassins in check? If they're able to take out the most powerful people in the game for a few gold pieces, why don't they go around killing everybody and take over? Are there so many players that you have enough to populate all of these factions, down to the forest bandits?

I guess it's kind of hard to see the picture here with just a few paragraphs. :smile: It seems like there is an awful lot going on here; it sounds like much more detail would be needed to understand how all the pieces fit together.
18 Nov, 2008, Dean wrote in the 20th comment:
Votes: 0
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I guess it's kind of hard to see the picture here with just a few paragraphs. It seems like there is an awful lot going on here; it sounds like much more detail would be needed to understand how all the pieces fit together
Well, you have a point, a few paragraphs will never really be enough to adequately explain it. It's important to point out that I've certainly not decided whether or not I want to/or am capable of undertaking such a project (hence why I don't have many solid answers to the problems at hand) What I will do though is attempt to offer some kind of response to the issues you raised.

Permanent Death- Most likely. Perhaps a system of where the player becomes incapicated instead of dieing straight up. A "newbie shield" up to a certain level. With divine intervention and almsivi intervention scrolls, I can't forsee the death toll being too high personally though I won't rule it out.

Assassins The Morag Tong is a guild of assassins guided by ancient tradition. They are legal in Morrowind (though I would assume further abroad too) A Morag Tong assassin can only kill a person designated in a writ. To do so is considered quite dishonourable and the offender would likely face expulsion and often executed. The dark brotherhood is another story but they are completely outlawed, that and the Morag Tong are dead keen on wiping them off the face of Tamriel (being a dark perversion of their own order).

Who keeps them in check from a rampage, etc? I like the idea of a coded law system that I have seen in a few muds other the years. That way, the Town guards and Legionaires can set about keeping the peace so to speak. I'd dare say that most Lords and that sort of ilk would at least have some form of protection against assassins, even if they only happen to be NPC's. As for where would assassins spend their gold? I'm no assassin so I would have no clue where that ilk would spend their purse of gold. Any ideas? :lol:

PC Population If I was being totally honest David, I would be more inclined to lean towards saying, that no there probaly would not be enough players to fill out these factions. As has been aforementioned, alot of elderscrolls are up in arms/in fear that ES V might be a MMO. Having said that, one of the appealing things about MUDs as opposed to MMO's like WoW, is they are in general capable of doing things that those types cannot.

Hopefully thats another tiny bit of the puzzle toward making things clearer. :biggrin:
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