30 Oct, 2008, Tyche wrote in the 1st comment:
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Discussion continued from here


Hades_Kane wrote:
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What the hell IS Tyche talking about?


Davion wrote:
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It seems we aren't going to find out… However, I shall continue to wait with bated breath. If it is the whole Crat issue way back when, I think we made some form of public statement about it. If not, then I apologize.


Cratylus wrote:
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After spending many hours digging up log after log surrounding the incident and comparing them with Crat's. We never came up with an absolute answer. What we did come up with would only lead to lots of speculation without a finite way to come up with an answer, so you'll have to forgive me for not publicly posting everything. At any rate, the issue was dealt with in private with Cratylus, whom also has all these logs, so it's not like we (MudBytes) are holding them back to hide anything.

Yknow what's weird, I thought you had, but I'm not finding it.

Anyway, at the risk of opening up old scars, I suppose it's
worth making explicit what is being hinted at here, for folks
not interested in reading the whole mudbytes bug thread.

1) I made a picture that poked fun of mudbytes policies,
and put a link to it in my sig there. I took a screencap
in case an admin got mad and decided to mess with the post.

2) I came back later, and the link was modified. I took a
screencap of that, and accused mudbytes admins of messing
with my post.

3) All the admins denied it, and I got banned from MB.

4) The TMC thread "mudbytes bug" details the subsequent drama.

5) In the end, my caps proved legitimate (indeed they also happened
to catch a bug in the forum software), and while 100% proof is not
available, MB logs (and mine) very strongly point to a MB admin
having edited my post.

Does any of this matter? Not much, except that it was part of a
general problem at Mudbytes that involved disrespecting member
contributions and admins fostering an "us versus them" moderation
standard based on things like political opinion. Really kind of uncool
for a "community site", IMO.

That problem, as far as I can tell, has been fixed now that
the admin that tended to create these dramas no longer does
forum moderation.

As far as I know, that's where things publicly stand, and if
Delic/Davion disagrees, then this (or the mudbytes bug thread)
is where he can publicly declare that.

Assuming this thing is what Tyche was getting at with someone
being owed an apology, I have to say that Delic's approach to it,
though I've disagreed with his opinion on some things, has been
responsible and receptive to reason. At this point it seems that
if MB admins behave badly, they are coordinated enough to all
shoulder blame. But back then it was a disorganized mess, and
I think that blame for bad stuff then tended to hang around the
neck of the given admin, not all of them.

If this is indeed the thing Tyche is referring to, then I think
the matter has been handled, and indeed steps have been taken to
prevent that sort of abusive stuff. I think MB deserves another
chance, and coming fro me, of all people, I'd think that's
saying something! ;)


I'm not the one owed an apology, although I have respect for another's contributions to the mudding community that is apparently not shared by those at MudBytes.

Discuss, lock, delete or whatever the hell you do under your rules.
30 Oct, 2008, David Haley wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
Why exactly is this being brought up? I mean,
even Cratylus said:
If this is indeed the thing Tyche is referring to, then I think
the matter has been handled, and indeed steps have been taken to
prevent that sort of abusive stuff. I think MB deserves another
chance, and coming fro me, of all people, I'd think that's
saying something! ;)


What goal are you trying to achieve other than open old wounds?
31 Oct, 2008, Zeno wrote in the 3rd comment:
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Because people were asking what Tyche was referring to on TMC. But that was on TMC…
31 Oct, 2008, Davion wrote in the 4th comment:
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DavidHaley said:
What goal are you trying to achieve other than open old wounds?

I think his goal is to get Scandum untrolled. I think he means that Scandum is owed an apology. I don't know what to say. Scandum is in the trolls group for quite a good reason. He was trolling. If he wishes to be untrolled he can simply do exactly how Cratylus did it. Examples of his trolling are pretty obvious in one of the links Tyche provided.
31 Oct, 2008, Kjwah wrote in the 5th comment:
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Isn't there something better to do than this?

Are we back in junior high school or high school?

edit: lol
31 Oct, 2008, Hades_Kane wrote in the 6th comment:
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Ah, this issue.

I'm completely behind Scandum getting trolled.

In my opinion, Scandum owes MudBytes an apology :p
31 Oct, 2008, Cratylus wrote in the 7th comment:
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Davion wrote:
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If he wishes to be untrolled he can simply do exactly how Cratylus did it.


I happen to feel so strongly about my projects that submitting them
is per se valuable to me. It suited me to do so, whether or not you
made it a condition of my untrolling.

Having said that, I find your condition of "you have to submit code
before I untroll you" to be grotesque. It makes you look like you
want your ring to be kissed and to be called Godfather. I think
it reeks of immaturity and coerciveness.

It also commoditizes code in an unhealthy way. It makes code a
bargaining chip, a political instrument. I don't think that this
approach to code is in the best interest of this site's reputation.

If you feel Scandum deserves an indefinite trolling, fine. If you
feel he deserves a limited trolling, fine. I just strongly urge you
to find some way of limiting trollings that doesn't involve the
coercive use of code.

My approach to offenses on the resources I administer is
to occasionally review bans and just lift them after a while. No
special announcement, no big deal…sometimes a person's banishment
stop serving a purpose and it's time to lift it. The only ones
I've permabanned are spambots.

If you feel Scandum has been sent a strong enough message, then
just untroll him. If you feel it is still necessary to have him
trolled, then leave it. But this buisness of bringing you tribute
in order to merit an indulgence…that's for the birds, man.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
31 Oct, 2008, David Haley wrote in the 8th comment:
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FWIW I think the intention of Davion's comment was that if Scandum wants to be untrolled he knows what channels to use and who to talk to, not that he has to pay some kind of tribute first. I agree that the circumstances are somewhat unfortunate. I also think that we really don't need some random "redirected" tangent from a completely different forum start a huge argument here.
31 Oct, 2008, Cratylus wrote in the 9th comment:
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I also think that we really don't need some random "redirected" tangent from a completely different forum start a huge argument here.


I'm an optimist. I'm confident we can disagree without people
flying off the handle..and if they do, I'm confident that we
can regard them as outliers and not overreact.

If it seems like I'm getting warmed up for a huge argument, I'm
really not. I just disagree with a system of sold
indulgences for remission of trollings, and I thought that's
what Davion was getting at.

If that's not actually the standard, then never mind.

Regarding who owes an apology to whom, I'd just as soon move on
than dwell on who was more wronged, and regarding Scandum specifically,
while I found his arguments crude and his attitude execrable,
I think all he was doing was harming himself, not anyone else.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
31 Oct, 2008, David Haley wrote in the 10th comment:
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I think that we are agreed on all points, then. :smile:
01 Nov, 2008, Tyche wrote in the 11th comment:
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Davion said:
I think he means that Scandum is owed an apology. I don't know what to say. Scandum is in the trolls group for quite a good reason. He was trolling. If he wishes to be untrolled he can simply do exactly how Cratylus did it. Examples of his trolling are pretty obvious in one of the links Tyche provided.


What I see is someone who was punished because of their comments on a single thread. In fact the thread was an off-topic current news/political topic started by none other than yourself in your off-topic general chat forum where you requested commentary. And since as far as I can tell almost every single one of his previous 141 postings were either apparently on-topic, helpful and non-disruptive, I fail to see how that under any definition is the actions or patterns of a troll. One might reasonably ask whether you were bored and just trolling.

Also your staff never bothered to explain your actions at all unlike a previous situation. And has never bothered to explain the amusing apparent policy of allowing staff to post political threads here and locking users who do it. I questioned your ability to open and honest, and you still give above a hand waving "examples of his trolling are pretty obvious" dismissal. Frankly I could do the same thing by providing links to David's or Samson's posts, and say isn't it obvious they are trolls because they've continually laid bait and flamed each other for the past year and a half and repeated it across multiple topics.

I'll tell you what I think. No you didn't ban Scandum because he was a troll (or what most of us recognize as defining a troll). The thread was actually locked over Cratylus and Samson fighting. Scandum posted an normal response three days later on another aimless off-topic thread started by one of your staff. I think what really happened is you received complaints from certain users threatening to leave if you didn't punish Scandum. And you sent him a "Dear John" PM or something. And the thing that makes your actions even more ignoble, is that Samson is on record agreeing with many of Scandum's comments and arguing them over on TMC. So I think you made a cowardly and hypocritical decision, you burned Scandum and didn't do a damn thing about Samson for obvious reasons. IMNSHO, you shouldn't have done anything to either of them.

Frankly you could have done the same thing to pretty much anyone here and demand they write an article for you, fork over their code, or some other nonsense to PROVE they are worthy member of your mud community. No doubt you'd get a "Go to hell" letter from most of us. So laying it back on Scandum saying well he knows what to do is pretty petty and rather small of you all. And yet you have the gall to tell us over on TMC that we've made mistakes and the only thing we can do is learn from them. Baloney! You could actually fix your God damn mistakes. Furthermore, if it is now your policy to not allow posters to argue politics (I have no idea you clarified it), then maybe you should release those your old schizophrenic policy made political prisoners.
01 Nov, 2008, Kjwah wrote in the 12th comment:
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Lol, I feel like I am in high school. I thought most of these posters(Kind of funny I actually know the age of these people) were able to realize that this type of retarded shit tears apart the MUDding community..

Seriously, it's this type of shit that happened on kyndig.com(when that is what it was) that drove me away from you fucking idiots(this community). Ban me if you want, I don't give two shits but it's rather disturbing that I come back to a community that is exactly the same. Some fucking great programmers that are well over age acting like they are fucking twelve.

Will you all grow the fuck up? This is coming from someone that is far from grown up. :/

Boo fucking hoo. Someone got banned(trolled status), who gives a fuck. They can correct the problem if the feel the need to. Obviously they don't give two shits.. So shut the fuck up.

Anyways, when you run mudbytes, you can decide who does what. Until then, even if it's unfair, deal with it. It's not your site. If you try and tell me how I should run one of my sites, I'll tell your ass to go play in traffic. It's mine not yours. Call me a Nazi, I'll call you a fucking idiot and then tell you to play in traffic and make fun of your dead mother. That's how I fucking roll.

Have fun, probably my last post. :) Now ban my account(It's going to happen anyway, well, maybe) so I can get back to just lurking around because this shit is getting fucking retarded.

Thanks again for reminding me why I stopped fucking around with this community. This is the place where 40 year olds are twelve and twelve year olds are eight. Have fun.
01 Nov, 2008, Cratylus wrote in the 13th comment:
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this type of retarded shit tears apart the MUDding community


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Will you all grow the fuck up?



Earlier in this thread I mentioned the possibility of someone
flying off the handle and being unable to deal with this thread.

That person, apparently, is you.

I'm going to hope you calm down, and indeed, take your
own advice to handle things like a grownup.

I'm also going to hope that your outburst doesn't give
people the excuse to lock this thread, because while
you think that disagreement hurts the community, I
think it's the suppression of disagreement that
is far more damaging.

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Have fun, probably my last post. :) Now ban my account


I'm sorry, I think this is totally disproportionate.

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Thanks again for reminding me why I stopped fucking around with this community.


Why you mad, tho?


-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
01 Nov, 2008, David Haley wrote in the 14th comment:
Votes: 0
To Tyche: is there a constructive goal being served for improvement in the future, or are we just trying to decide who scored how many points in past arguments? I don't necessarily disagree with everything you said, I'm just not sure I see the point in rehashing all of this. Is the goal here to get Scandum untrolled? Let's assume for the sake of argument that everybody wants to do that. If it worked, is there reason to think he'd actually return? What I am trying to ask you is whether or not you believe that the expected gains here are higher than the expected losses…

To Kjwah: if it bothers you so much, I'd suggest just ignoring it. And FWIW it hadn't even become an argument yet. :wink:

Cratylus said:
Why you mad, tho?

Very nice :smile:
02 Nov, 2008, Conner wrote in the 15th comment:
Votes: 0
DavidHaley said:
To Kjwah: if it bothers you so much, I'd suggest just ignoring it. And FWIW it hadn't even become an argument yet. :wink:

David's right, you know. While it certainly sounded like Tyche's response was pretty angry in itself, no one's actually argued anything yet here. :shrug:
02 Nov, 2008, Zeno wrote in the 16th comment:
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Tyche's sig said:

My god, will you stop trolling?
02 Nov, 2008, The_Fury wrote in the 17th comment:
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Zeno said:
Tyche's sig said:

My god, will you stop trolling?


While i have not cared much for this thread, that image made me giggle.
02 Nov, 2008, tphegley wrote in the 18th comment:
Votes: 0
Tyche's sig said:


I have no problem with MudByte admins deleting threads if they are not helpful to the community. That's what this site is about and that's why I come here. To read about what admins are doing, not what people have a problem with. So if it means getting rid of trolls/flames/unneeded posts, then so be it. Put the tape on the mouth and silence them. If you want to help the community then by all means go for it, and if you don't…don't. But this topic…this topic doesn't help the community.
02 Nov, 2008, Chris Bailey wrote in the 19th comment:
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tphegley said:
I have no problem with MudByte admins deleting threads if they are not helpful to the community. That's what this site is about and that's why I come here. To read about what admins are doing, not what people have a problem with. So if it means getting rid of trolls/flames/unneeded posts, then so be it. Put the tape on the mouth and silence them. If you want to help the community then by all means go for it, and if you don't…don't. But this topic…this topic doesn't help the community.


I wouldn't be so quick to assume that this 'topic' is not helpful to the community. Advocating the free-speech of the members of a community sounds rather important to me. I do agree that is entirely within the rights of the administrators of the site to handle the situation however they see fit but that does not mean that everyone has to like it. Fortunately for us it is acceptable to discuss our opinions on these matters here at Mudbytes, and that is one of the things I like about this site. As far as I can tell it has a limited amount of useless bickering and a plethora of brilliant coders to consult.

zeno said:
My god, will you stop trolling?


I don't believe Tyche has done anything in this thread that should be classified as trolling. In my opinion he has done little more than bring attention to situation that might very need it and express his distaste for said situation. While I doubt many people actually agree with the points that Scandum was attempting to make it doesn't mean that he shouldn't have been allowed to make them. I read through his posts and it seemed to me that he was flowing with the conversation and that his posts were only slightly more antagonistic than those directed toward him. If any particular rule was being enforced on Scandum other than a general "I don't like your comments or opinions" rule I'm unable to see why that same rule wasn't enforced on others involved in the discussion.

The way I understand it, Tyche wants the administrators involved in the situation to apologize to(and unban?) Scandum before he will continue to post and submit his work at Mudbytes. I wish it could be a different way because I doubt anyone is about to do those things.
02 Nov, 2008, The_Fury wrote in the 20th comment:
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I don't believe Tyche has done anything in this thread that should be classified as trolling.


While i agree with you entirely that Tyche has conducted himself fairly in how he has presented his arguments, my only concern is why bring this up now, when 3 months ago we went through all these very matters and settled them all with the exception of Scandium, whome like Cratylus and myself could have approached Mudbytes and offered to to let bygones be bygones. Sometimes its not about who is right, but about doing what is right. IMO these matters should have been brought up back then and i can see no obvious reason to bring them up again now.
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