26 Aug, 2008, Hades_Kane wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
I think Kayle has a pretty good mind about the situation and I'd agree with how he (I'm assuming "he", Kayle seems a bit gender unspecific to me, I apologize if you are a female) is seeing it in regards to the moderation issue.

I think lack of players and dwindling interest is one of the community's issues overall, however.

As far as ways to fix it, that's really going to be a big problem. I think, ultimately, game companies like IRE probably do more good for the community as a whole because they are able to reach outside of the traditional MUD community and advertise to outside audiences. I think trying to bring in fresh blood is the biggest approach we can try to take. That's probably a bit of an obvious statement, but I guess the question would largely be how.

MMORPGs are clearly a HUGE market and that's one thing we can try to tap into. I would be inclined to suggest that with an overall interest being shown in "retro" gaming (look at Wii's virtual console and the overall popularity of emulation for what I mean specifically) that it might be one approach is to try to present MUDing as a "retro" form of MMORPGs, but that still sees active development and innovation. I would be concerned that this might pigeon hole us into too certain of a category or create an attitude about MUDing we might not actually want, but it is something to at least consider somewhat. Another way of approaching it might be to suggest that people who enjoy things like World of Warcraft or Everquest take a look at the type of game that originated what they enjoy now, like come take a look at the roots of your hobby. Possibly paying some mind to mimic or implement familiar features for MMORPGers might be worth considering, as it might make the bridge from MMORPG to MUD a bit easier.

Other games, like my own that has a specific theme to it, I think that it is worth trying to target advertising toward fans of that theme. My game is based on Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger, and when we open and I try to get some advertising going on certain sites, among the sites I'm looking at is the Final Fantasy Compendium and the Chrono Compendium, aside from TMC. I think if you have the advantage of being based on a theme with an established fan base, rather than looking for MUDers that are fans of your theme exclusively, it might be worth trying to appeal to fans of your theme and get them into MUDing. Games like Zeno's has a chance to branch out, there are plenty of Star Wars and Dragonball and other Anime general themes that has a chance to bring in fresh blood.

Word of mouth is always good, of course, and I always try to list MUDing as an interest and tell a little bit about it on any sites that it would be appropriate, such as any sites I might have some sort of profile like MySpace.

Speaking of MySpace, they have introduced some sort of advertising for its users, and this might be something that would be the interest of us all to look into doing. That might be a great way to try to bring in fresh blood is to buy advertising there. I've seen one MUD randomly show up among the ads I see there already. I've also thought about creating a MySpace page for my MUD and use it in a similar way a band might, and try to spread the word of my game in that manner.

I'm probably not spouting out any extremely novel ideas, but I think conversation about this can hopefully help us all think outside of the box.
26 Aug, 2008, David Haley wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
It might be easier to separate the two discussions going on so that we can keep track of things. It seems that the two main topics are how to approach moderation, and how to help the community/how to move forward/how to continue development. I have some things to say about the latter but haven't as I've been trying to avoid diluting things here.

EDIT: and yes, Kayle is a he… :wink:
26 Aug, 2008, Kayle wrote in the 3rd comment:
Votes: 0
David said:
Bringing in a new moderator has been brought up many times in this thread. I might as well throw in my two cents just in case the idea is actually being considered. To start with the obvious, the moderator should be a regular contributor: somebody who is around frequently enough to keep a handle on things. The person should have a feel for the pulse of the community and know – and be known by – most regulars. Although I think community suggestions would be valuable, I don't believe that the moderator should be elected by the whole community, because that will turn things into a popularity contest, with campaigning and whatnot and all the problems that go with that.


I agree that it shouldn't be turned into some kind of popularity contest. The person or people selected should be selected exactly as you said, based on being around enough to keep a handle things, and knowing, and being known by all the regulars. I think they should also at least be liked by the others. It wouldn't make much sense to pick a moderator everyone dislikes because they never take anything seriously, or they take too much too seriously.

Also, as for the code, Yes. Maybe there isn't enough focused code, and too much just code.

[Edit:] Indeed, I am a he. Kayle's pronouce the same as Cale, like the herb usually used as a garnish in restaraunts. I just have this thing for not spelling things in the standard way. My cats, Rayne, Hayle and Twyster (rain, hail, twister ;) ) are all perfect examples. :P
26 Aug, 2008, Zenn wrote in the 4th comment:
Votes: 0
DavidHaley said:
It might be easier to separate the two discussions going on so that we can keep track of things. It seems that the two main topics are how to approach moderation, and how to help the community/how to move forward/how to continue development. I have some things to say about the latter but haven't as I've been trying to avoid diluting things here.

EDIT: and yes, Kayle is a he… :wink:


No. Don't screw with splitting up the thread, because both topics are important to each other and all tie into the same issues.
26 Aug, 2008, David Haley wrote in the 5th comment:
Votes: 0
Well Zenn, for what it's worth, I think discussing MUD technology and what might help on the technical side really is completely orthogonal to moderation… :wink:

Kayle said:
It wouldn't make much sense to pick a moderator everyone dislikes because they never take anything seriously, or they take too much too seriously.

Oh, right – I forgot to mention that. I agree…
26 Aug, 2008, Kayle wrote in the 6th comment:
Votes: 0
Zenn said:
No. Don't screw with splitting up the thread, because both topics are important to each other and all tie into the same issues.


Uh How exactly does discussing how to breathe life back into the community have any bearing on how to handle moderation and it's resulting repercussions for this site, not the community. I'm with David, the two issues should be split into separate threads and discussed separately.
26 Aug, 2008, Davion wrote in the 7th comment:
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Split from here.
27 Aug, 2008, Zeno wrote in the 8th comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
Games like Zeno's has a chance to branch out, there are plenty of Star Wars and Dragonball and other Anime general themes that has a chance to bring in fresh blood.

Yep. Right now I have 18 players on, a considerable amount are new people to MUDs.

At the same time there's a downside. If the theme starts to lose fans (much like InuYasha did when it abruptly ended) so will the MUD. That is one of the reasons I ended up adapting a 2nd anime theme to my MUD.
28 Aug, 2008, Sandi wrote in the 9th comment:
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Gratz, Zeno! Good on yah.
28 Aug, 2008, Hades_Kane wrote in the 10th comment:
Votes: 0
Zeno said:
Quote
Games like Zeno's has a chance to branch out, there are plenty of Star Wars and Dragonball and other Anime general themes that has a chance to bring in fresh blood.

Yep. Right now I have 18 players on, a considerable amount are new people to MUDs.

At the same time there's a downside. If the theme starts to lose fans (much like InuYasha did when it abruptly ended) so will the MUD. That is one of the reasons I ended up adapting a 2nd anime theme to my MUD.


I guess the fact that Final Fantasy may never see its Final game would serve us well, although I don't forsee us including anything after FFX…
28 Aug, 2008, Orrin wrote in the 11th comment:
Votes: 0
I am not sure that mudding is in a dire state, however I do feel there is definite room for improvement. Online gaming as a hobby is more popular than ever and as a community we need to ask ourselves how best we can take advantage of this.

I believe the main problems we have are:

  • Awareness - a lot of potential players just don't know what a mud is.

  • Quality - there are a lot of poor quality muds around and it can be difficult for new players to distinguish the excellent from the average.

  • Gameplay - modern gamers may prefer to get their "hack and slash" fix from graphical games.

  • Accessibility - a choice between windows telnet (which may not even be enabled on their OS) or downloading, installing and configuring a third party client is going to put a lot of potential players off.


It was mentioned in another thread, but I think a portal site would be the best way to tackle all these issues. The site could promote a smaller number of high quality games with an emphasis on gameplay that muds do well - roleplaying, PvP, politics, user created content etc. A portal site would allow the muds to pool advertising resources and also include a common web client with a "one click" connection to the games.

The problem of course is who decides which muds get to be on the site and who would be willing to take the work on. I think as a community venture it would likely fail (too many cooks) but it could be an opportunity for an enterprising individual to take it on. I'm not sure there is much profit in it, but it should be possible to charge a membership fee to cover advertising and hosting - at least enough to keep it cost neutral. I think a well put together site with a decent client and a strong marketing strategy would be attractive to a lot of good medium sized games. You could certainly get some ideas from the way iron realms and skotos do things with their portal sites.
28 Aug, 2008, Sandi wrote in the 12th comment:
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Orrin, you might want to take a look in the forked, "Valdaar on Collaboration" thread. We've been talking about such sites there.
28 Aug, 2008, Sandi wrote in the 13th comment:
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I also think we need this thread split, as I see two important topics sort of struggling…
28 Aug, 2008, Sandi wrote in the 14th comment:
Votes: 0
On moderation, I think it takes as many as needed to do the work, and as I mentioned else-thread, that depends a lot on we, the posters. We can make the mods work or clean up after ourselves, to a great degree.

I do know that on large sites there's a Head Mod who only watches the regular Mods. That's why someone commented Lasher himself doesn't seem to do the 'dirty work'. But, this is how a consistent approach to handling problems is achieved. The Head Mod oversees everything the others do, making sure things are handled properly and that there's a uniform front as seen by the posters.

The scenarios Samson has described to defend The Hammer, I think, are too big. I feel this place is on a much smaller scale. When you can't keep up with it, then yes, no explanations, sink or swim, there's someone waiting to take your place…. but here I think there is time to warn, to explain, to generally show some respect and treat everyone as an equal.

I also believe in Tyche's premise that forums are just as much games as any other venue. And there are the usual types - helpers, socialisers, and player killers. And here, among our select group, we have some of the beefiest, baddest forum PKers on the 'net. Just to pick an obvious choice, Cratylus, take a bow. Crat could easily have any two seasoned mods tearing their hair and calling for help. With pictures, no less! (I say this with a touch of envy.) So, in those newer clearer, rules we need some sort of gentleman's agreement to leave our guns at the door. Not sure how to say that, or how it might work, but there does seem to be a similar consensus on mudlab. Then again, it's almost like their mods have been selected for their firepower. :0

Some really, really BIG hatchets have been buried in recent threads, and I quite excited by that. I'd love to think this isn't simply a replay of the Summer of '68. I guess I'm thinking maybe some kind of compact we could all agree to might work. Since honor tends be at the root of the flames, perhaps honor can keep them down.


Me, I promise to assume that anyone that says something stupid simply said something stupid, and is not in fact stupid themselves, and I will forgo the small pleasure of twisting their words to make them look stupid, because hey, I end up looking stupid often enough, all by myself.
28 Aug, 2008, Cratylus wrote in the 15th comment:
Votes: 0
Heh…"forum PK'er". I loled for reals!

I should work on a finishing move to go
with the big booming voice at the end:

CRATALITY!

In truth, I don't think of myself that way. Largely
because I don't see my posts as mean spirited. It's
an interesting idea, though, and food for thought.

Sandi wrote:
Quote
we need some sort of gentleman's agreement to leave our guns at the door


It's not especially advantageous to my interests
to be regarded as a gunslinger. Folks accustomed to
my personality know I can be very easily reasoned
or shamed into reconsidering my premises and
modulating my approach.

Hopefully the New Collegiality lasts long enough
for folks here to get to know that about me as well.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
28 Aug, 2008, Orrin wrote in the 16th comment:
Votes: 0
Sandi said:
I also think we need this thread split, as I see two important topics sort of struggling…


I thought it already had been split. The topic I replied to was "The state of mudding… dire", not anything to do with moderation. I did see the other thread where a community site was discussed, but I felt that was concerned more with merging struggling games and sharing resources, whereas I felt my comments were more directly related to the OP.
28 Aug, 2008, Sandi wrote in the 17th comment:
Votes: 0
Cratylus said:
In truth, I don't think of myself that way. Largely
because I don't see my posts as mean spirited. It's
an interesting idea, though, and food for thought.


I think I've done it agan. :sad:

I picked on you to be poster boy largely because I don't think you're one of the "bullies", and it didn't occur to me anyone would see you that way. But I think we all realise that that the upshot of all those witty remarks is that should someone want to match wits with you, they'll find your wits sharpened by constant practice. My point being, any of the regular users here could escalate a confrontation to epic proportions in less than a page. I guess I'm really trying to say that if we want medium level moderation, we need to be moderate in our own posting. I mean, I really think it's a two way street.
28 Aug, 2008, Cratylus wrote in the 18th comment:
Votes: 0
Sandi wrote:
Quote
I think I've done it agan.

I picked on you to be poster boy largely because I don't think you're one of the "bullies", and it didn't occur to me anyone would see you that way.


I don't feel offended, if that's what you mean. I
understood your good intent.

Unfortunately, sometimes I am the subject of a
little fud, so it seemed a good idea to express
my opinion on that.

I appreciate both the insight, and the attempt
to clarify your point.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
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